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Author Topic: Dont' swap out your 8V-71N  (Read 3480 times)
TomC
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« on: October 23, 2007, 04:25:04 PM »

I just got back from Lake Havasu, Az pulling my car behind (34750lbs total).  With the 8V-71 now turboed with the air to air intercooler, it is truly amazing the power difference.  I only increased the injectors from 65 to 75, or 300hp to 375hp and 800lb/ft torque to 1125lb/ft torque. Coming west on I-40 from Needles, Ca up the long grade, I just kept it on the King Cruise control at 58 mph (1800rpm) and it stayed that way till the last mile or so that gets steeper.  The slowest I went was 43mph, still on cruise control, then at the top of the hill, quickly got back up to speed. 

My point-if you're tired of the power of the 8V-71, have it turboed and air to air intercooled instead of going through the hassle of changing to another engine.  It REALLY wakes up the engine.  Especially if your engine is tired, have it rebuilt to a turbo and you can get 400hp and 1200lb/ft torque.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2007, 04:59:33 PM »

Hi Tom,

I am glad to see your post. I am getting ready to repower my *. Idin't reallly know what to do. Would you e-mail me some info on your re-power?

                                   Thanks
                                          James
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2007, 05:38:34 PM »

The 71 series DD is a great engine. Some say the best diesel engine ever built! I turboed my 4-71 with great results. Hard to beat from a capital cost and fuel milage stand point. Of course the late model 4 strokes are great, but so much more expensive.
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« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2007, 06:03:38 AM »

How about a takeout from a truck instead of turboing the original engine? I know where there used to be a wrecked Pete with a 871T (might be a TT). I know the truck & the engine was rebuilt about 90,000 before the wreck. The last time I saw it, the engine was still there. It had a 13 speed & I could probably buy the whole setup for $3000 or less.

Opinions???

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« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2007, 06:14:26 AM »

Tom, I installed an 8V71TA from a truck. It has 370 hp (according to the mfg specs tag on the valve cover) with 7G75 injectors.
   It does very well in my bus.....
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 06:24:54 AM by ChuckMC8 » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2007, 06:51:44 AM »

Tom,
Do you have any information to share that you personally used to upgraded your 8V71 to a turbo.  Don Fairchild also recommended this and you have to listen to experience which I have finally realized from 5 years ago.  If you can tell us where you got your parts, instructions how you did it and maybe some close up photos of what you did do.  I am totally in the dark on this feature of anything on my 8V71.  I am just now in the thinking stage and want to start shopping for the correct parts needed.

I have recently bought a SPARE 8V71 for my bus which has Jake's on it and I hope to incorporate those Jakes into my present 8V71 (If Possible) now in my bus until my present engine pukes on me and then install the SPARE if needed.  This is my plan anyhow, that may change tomorrow though.

I am hoping when I get closer to reality of working on my engine to start it up after all this time to do everything possible to maximize the power in my engine without getting into a $15,000 re power which just will not happen in my bus.  I do not have enough years left to even think about that one.  Anyhow I am really pumped up after talking to Don and seeing your post and appreciate any and all information as to what you did or had done that you care to share.  If you want to contact me personally please feel free to do so from my profile address. 

Pictures as you know tell a whole story if something is possible to understand better than just words and you know I love photos.  I will photograph every aspect of doing as you have done and post it after all documenting what I have done for others to consider and also assist them to do as I am asking you to share with me and us all really. 

I don't want to run 85 mph, but I want all the power I need to be confident my bus will pull me up a steep mountain any place we travel. 

What you have done is way more feasible for me to consider doing than a big engine re power with all the electronics etc. Simplicity is best for me especially now, let the younger guys have the new hi-tech stuff to enjoy.  I have enough trouble with my computer and what it wants to do on it's own.  Don't need this on my bus. 

If possible and you don't mind let us know where you got the parts, (truck bone yards etc. or direct from manufacturer) and anything you can share.

Thanks again for the reassurance that my original thought after talking to Don is correct and what I surely will do. 

Gary
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TomC
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2007, 08:45:57 AM »

Gary- Don Fairchild did the work on my bus.  I had a custom air to air intercooler made by Sierra in Tulsa OK that works great (4" in and out- 3" thick and able to flow 1500cfm).  Don immediately pulled the engine and transmission.  He pulled out one of the pistons to check the rings, and since it is a transit bus, had the tight rings that would accept turboing.  Because of the higher compression ratio (18.7 on a non turbo to 17.0 for a turbo) we stayed with going from N65 brown tag to 9G75 (newest model)(with 80 injectors will get 400hp and 1200lb/ft), changing the blower to a bypass valve type (bypasses enough air to allow the blower just to free wheel when under turbo boost-above 5psi), used an early Series 60 turbo with waste gate to keep the boost under 15psi, and installing a fuel modulator to keep the smoking down before turbo boost (otherwise it'll smoke thick black like a train).  With the long exhaust run and lower boost, it takes about a minute for it to stop putting out a bit of visual smoke.  But once warm, no smoke at all, and great performance.  Also done at the same time, Don installed a new oil pump drive and had the V730 rebuilt.  Granted the engine part cost $11,500, and the transmission was $6500, but now it runs well and won't have to worry about break down.  I didn't change my rear end ratio, nor am I going to.  It's geared for 58mph at 1850, and 67mph at 2100, which is just fine with me.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2007, 09:03:02 AM »

Chuck,

What else did you have to do to make that happen? Radiators? Exhaust? Different mounting for the turbo? Same tranny? Auto or 4 speed?

That is a nice looking job!

TOM
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2007, 09:12:44 AM »

What's included in the total price is just about redoing everything in the engine compartment.  Changing the radiator from a 5 row straight fin to a 6 row serpentine fin, changing the air cleaner from a 6" to 7" opening, changing the stuffed up huge muffler to a 5" inlet and outlet at the same end turbo muff, and since my radiator is as large as I could go, had to install misters (15 heads), installed two vents on the rear engine door, and an auxiliary transmission cooler with thermostatically controlled elec fan that is plumbed directly off the hot side-goes through the auxiliary cooler then into the normal shell cooler-takes the strain off the radiator.  The misters are only needed on long pulls when the temp is over 90.  This last trip, saw temps in the 70's and 80's, and didn't use the misters once.

Last year when I picked up the bus from Don, pulled 58 east out of Bakersfield when it was 72 and it heated up where I had to slow down.  Now pulling Needles hill west on I-40, it didn't get above 185 at 75 degrees outside-so the new radiator really works well.  Couple of months ago went through Mojave at 107 degrees-used the misters alot and slowed on the hills, but didn't see over 200 degrees.  Once home, used CLR on the radiator to eliminate a bit of calcium from the misters.  Ideally you should use distilled water on the misters, but I just have mine plumbed in to my water system.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2007, 09:34:17 AM »

Hey Gary!

Just put a 3406 B Model Cat in it.

Sorry I could not help but reply.

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Sonnie Gray
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luvrbus
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2007, 09:54:24 AM »

just seems like a lot of cash to spend for a few more HP and and still have a 8v71 but every body does it their way
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« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2007, 10:57:39 AM »

Tom,

This was primarily why I posted on this thread, I have no doubt that Don will do the best job on an engine that money can buy, you can tell by talking to him of his of his knowledge of 2 stroke DDS.  This is not the money I really wanted to spend, although sure the engine rebuild will last longer than I will, I was hoping that parts from other engines, (Turbo's) etc. what is needed to upgrade now would be considerably less in cost.  This project is just getting too expensive to do the way some of you have for me to do as you have, but I will not give up on searching for information in using used turbo parts etc, that I can incorporate into my present 8V71. 

I wish I had Don's knowledge to do my engine and will not give up getting information until it is time to make a final decision on what to do.  I still have so much to purchase before start up of my Eagle and hope that when I do, I can go further than the 100 miles she has taken me. 

Thanks again Tom for the information I know it took a quite awhile to document in this post.

Good luck on your new power up by Don, I am sure it will kick butt for life now for you.

Gary
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 11:10:42 AM by Gary LaBombard » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2007, 12:41:55 PM »

Hello TomC;

You sound like one happy camper.  Nothin' more sweet than the sound of a 8VT singing thru the night.  Just curious, not nickpicking here or anything, just curious, just curious, did you pull a mighty downshift with your 730 or did you just leave the old girl (now young girl!) in high gear and let the mill pull down to around 1330 rpm?

I would have left the shifter in high or forward or whatever you have and just would have seen how good your now mighty turboed 8V Detroit pulled down.  Not lugging here, I am not using that word, I am using the work "pulling down".  Did you shift down and back out, or did you stand on it to sees what shes got??  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2007, 01:50:58 PM »

And....since I am regressing big time here and since I am now very very old, is THE master mechanic Don fairchild the same individual who years ago happened to work for Delany and Alf's or Valley Detroit and if he is, does he remember any crazy silly stupid city firemen around 1975 or sooss bothering him and others doing 353 and 453 installations into Ford pickups and stuff?   The world wonders.  If  he is, one of them crazy, silly firemen, Henry (me) says hi.  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2007, 03:37:26 PM »

HB- I down shift at 45 so the engine was turning around 1900rpm.  I could have left it since it does down shift automatically at 38mph or at about 1250 rpm, but like to keep the r's up.  Good LUck, TomC
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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2007, 09:50:57 PM »

TomC,
In a quest for a 8V71 engine to rebuild, how rare is the 8V71"A"?  I would think that that series would be worth looking for but I defer to you.  Also going with the "T" compression ratio?  Is that rare?  Many AT's out there?

Thanks,

John
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« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2007, 11:13:38 PM »

TomC,
In a quest for a 8V71 engine to rebuild, how rare is the 8V71"A"?  I would think that that series would be worth looking for but I defer to you.  Also going with the "T" compression ratio?  Is that rare?  Many AT's out there?

Thanks,

John

Hunh?

The T is for Turbocharged
The A is for Aftercooled

No need for aftercooler without the turbo, it cools the air coming from (after) the turbo.
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« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2007, 08:16:46 AM »

Yes there were 8V-71TA's made straight from the factory, and with 80 injectors were rated at 400hp and 1200lb/ft torque.  I used the air to air intercooler since I didn't want to swap out my block.  It turns out that my engine is a late block that I could have added the aftercooler, but the aftercooler is very small, and can't possibly cool the air as effectively as the air to air intercooler.  That's why vertually all Diesels in vehicles now are not only turbo'ed but also have air to air intercooling since it gets the most cooling possible.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2007, 10:07:29 AM »

Msheldon,

The 2 cycle Detroit has a blower on top that Super Charges the engine and forces air through the cylinder on the exhaust cycle.  That blower, like any compressor, heats the air.  Hot air, like in humans, creates reduced power.  Detroit puts a "water to air" , read compact here, "AFTER COOLER" after the blower and before the intake manifold.  Because they install the "turbo charger" right up against the inlet to the blower, the stock configuration does not lend itself to adding a conventional "intercooler" to cool the heated turbo compressed air.  Detroit tries to do all the cooling of the inducted air that is heated first by the turbo and then by the blower by using a water to air "after cooler".  Aftercooler is designated by the "A" and I think all 92 series engines have a :A" suffix.  TomC and many others are the experts here and will correct me if I am wrong.  Anyway, they are where I got all this data and if I am wrong it is because I heard them with a crooked ear.  TomC has a modified engine with a "smoke turbo" and he installed an intercooler after the turbo and before the blower. 

Good luck and welcome to the board,

John

KEEP READING and asking questions,

John

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« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2007, 10:33:59 AM »

I for one could never understand how a aftercooler on a DD could work anyway its no bigger than a auto heater core and has 185 degree water trying to cool air thats why i went to the air to air charger just my opinion
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« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2007, 05:56:35 PM »

luver,

Those DD engineers were not fools, honest.  That little aftercooler is small but as a water to air it does better than an air to air.....for its size.  The intercooler does a lot more cause it is bigger but I won't rip out the aftercooler and reduce the overall air cooling out of spite.  They went to a lot of trouble and expense to incorporate that little cooler in the design.

I used to do equipment testing and analysis work for the Navy.  We strung thermocouple wires to every point imaginable in bays of equipment.  Thin little pairs of wire soldered together on the ends.  Stick them anywhere you want and measure the temp in there with a highly precise digital volt meter.  The wire is cheap and the voltmeter can be had these day for less than $30.  Put a union on top of the aftercooler and one below.  Run her up to temp and apply the load and read the heat.  I'm sure everyone would be fascinated with that data.  The same for the intercooler would really round the data picture right out.  I will do this a long while from today so your test results will be verified.

Food for thought?

John
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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2007, 06:17:24 PM »

John,i know they are not fools because they built a engine thats been around for 60 plus years,But i had a 1991 Bluebird that had a 525 hp 8v92 and it had a air to air not a aftercooler and it was new.I can tell a big difference in mine now with the air to air on it better fuel mileage and more power and a huge difference at night.In the later years of production this was offered on the 8v92 for highway use
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« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2007, 11:56:23 PM »

Luvr,

Maybe that came out harsh.  Sorry if you thought I was talking down.  This print media is what I was told is "flat" and that that made a lot of stuff "sound" rude.   I don't need any more help in that regard and I wasn't being anything but humorious...honest  Grin  Of cpurse they were smart cookies Wink

My mind is strictly MCI.  I think the DD that was ordered for their busses had a limited number of configurations.  Those are the only ones I have even the remotest info on and that is hearsay although by experts in their own right.  I have never seen a MCI with a intercooler that was stock.

They, DD, have a config of the 71 and 92 series for all sorts of stuff that I never heard of.  A miletary rebuilt caught my eye the other day and I learned that the thing made 900HP or some such foolishness.  I thought maybe the block could be used for a rebuild and then learned that the ex manifold and headers wrapped around the engine and draped across the back before going down.  I also heard of a version that has a turbo mounted on the side of the engine and that guy has an intercooler.  I was also told that that stuff was not made by DD.  Am I putting money on any of this...not on your life. 

Went sport fishing in San Diego a while back and the engines sounded familiar.  Yep, it was DD with blower and turbos and used the Pac Ocean to cool itself.  The skipper said each engine put out 1000 hp.  Fisherman do lie though, or so I'm told.  I kick myself for not thinking to ask if they were 71 or 92 series.

Are you certain that the Bluebird engine didn't have an aftercooler?

Thanks,

John
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« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2007, 02:18:38 AM »

There was a time when Detriot Diesel was having financial problems and about to do the unthinkable, a guy whom we have all heard of stepped in and saved DD with his expertise and money he turned DD around! Part of the deal worked out was for him to have the rights to all of the DD designs and plans. The funny thing was he excluded the 8v92, he didn't want anything to do with it! It was the only engine that did not interest him.  Detriot Diesel like many other companies made some mistakes along the way!  I know DD made tens of 1000's of these engines, shear numbers doesn't make it a great engine!  Oh by the way the guy's name was Roger Penske!
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« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2007, 03:45:48 AM »

TOM,

Hi there. A newbie soon to be 8v71T none after cooled owner here. Just wondered where to obtain and what brand air to air after cooler to go after. 
Wouldn't want the old bus to be just another (run of the mill). May as well make it kick and get.
D.


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« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2007, 07:18:37 AM »

Pat,working for DD from 1961 to 2000 the 2 strokes and the parts for them were never offered for sale but sold to Daimler a  couple of years ago as the parts was a 250 million dollar business alone and the 60 series was already out and running before Roger also Daimler owns 48.6 percent of Roger.the 60 series has been replaced now by the DD15 14.8 L just for information
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« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2007, 07:31:12 AM »

For the air to air intercooler, I used www.sierratechnologies.com.

While the DD15 14.8L is going to be the replacement for the Series 60 14.0L, the Series 60 is still in production and will be until 2010. The Series 60 is just too reliable of an engine to stop production quite yet.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2007, 07:43:35 AM »

Tom C i should have said being replace by the DD15 but i don't think the 60 will be around till 2010 but who knows for sure the way that Company management is  now
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« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2007, 11:18:41 AM »




tom

   check your link for air to air intercoolers  I am looking for one for "huggy". but I don't need a protocol analyzer. have those

uncle ned
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« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2007, 12:02:35 PM »

Cider,

Northwest salvage has intercoolers stacked in their yard(or did).  They are take outs from Marathon and Country Coach and others.  I don't know their price but their has to be a size in there you could use.  These guys have gotten more spendy lately and you might try making them an offer and waiting it out.  A friend told me they will give you 50% off if you spend a couple grand in there at one time.  They have a boat load of stuff and that wouldn't be hard for a conversion in progress.

I would definitely shop around the internet.  Course, that goes for any purchase.

Good luck,

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
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