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Author Topic: Looking for wheels  (Read 3361 times)
msheldon
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« on: October 26, 2007, 06:33:51 PM »

I ran into a very unexpected problem with my Scenicruiser.

When I got it, all the wheels on it were in very bad condition, and were not even all of the same type (none were original). So, I bought all brand-new 22.5" steel wheels for it.

Now that it's back in operating condition, we discovered a problem. Current manufacture steel wheels (both 22.5 and 24.5) are designed to fit closely to a 14" diameter brake drum face. Problem is, the brake drums on the 'cruiser are 14.5" across the face. Apparently the 14" standard came some time after 1954. What this means is that the new wheels do not quite make contact with the drum face due to the taper of the wheel. There is a gap somewhere around 1/8".

Alcoa aluminum wheels will fit, the aluminum wheels have a completely different shape. However, the cost of getting ten alcoas is prohibitive. Even getting just four would be beyond my budget, and putting the pretty aluminum wheels on the inners seems a bit strange. However, if that's my only choice...

What I would really like to find is a steel wheel with a wider face. Next choice would be a 14", 1/4" thick spacer plate. However, I'm really not finding anything.

Anyone run into this with an older coach?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 09:49:13 PM by msheldon » Logged
jackhartjr
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2007, 07:49:22 PM »

Hi Michael, I have been following this on the Scenicruiser 21 forum and it just hit me.  I think you have the HUB PILOT Wheels instead of the STUD PILOT wheels.  With Hub pilot wheels the hub itself centers the wheel.  With Stud pilot the stud does the centering.  The Cruisers would have had stud piloted wheels and brake drums.  I know a guy in TN that has the stud pilots, he was asking $50.00 each for them.  I feel that you could probably get something for yours.  (Assumming that you have hub pilot wheels.)
Hope that helps.
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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2007, 09:31:15 PM »

Hey Shelton. I just measured the ID on a Firestone and Budd steel wheel. (Standard truck) 11/24.5.-8.25. It measures 21 inches across the inside. Are your brake drums bigger than that?
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msheldon
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2007, 09:47:02 PM »

Hi Michael, I have been following this on the Scenicruiser 21 forum and it just hit me.  I think you have the HUB PILOT Wheels instead of the STUD PILOT wheels.

No, they're definitely stud-centered budd wheels, hub centered don't have the tapered lug holes that these have Smiley
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msheldon
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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2007, 09:48:49 PM »

Hey Shelton. I just measured the ID on a Firestone and Budd steel wheel. (Standard truck) 11/24.5.-8.25. It measures 21 inches across the inside. Are your brake drums bigger than that?

I'm not talking about the complete diameter of the inside of the wheel. I'm talking about the diameter of the "contact face" on the inside of the wheel where the drum actually contacts the wheel.
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Len Silva
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2007, 08:36:20 AM »

I don't know where to find the proper wheels but how about cutting the centers out of some junk steel wheels to make spacers? Not orthodox but in my mind, I don't see any safety issues.

FWIW,

Len
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2007, 09:00:35 AM »

Hi msheldon,
If spacers will work for you, go to a welding or fabricating shop that has a computer controled plasma cutter. They will be able to make the spacers from either steel or aluminum and they will fit accurately if you provide them with accurate measurements. Better yet would be for you to take your bus or at least a wheel to them and they will take the measurements. When I had my shop I made new wheel centers for a log skidder when the owner put new complete axles under his skidder and the old wheel centers didn't match. If there isn't a shop near you that can do that I would be glad to recomend a shop here in La Crescent, MN.
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« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2007, 12:07:09 PM »

Are your new wheels Accuride or Alcoa? They both make steel wheels.

If your new wheels are Accuride see if you can find an Alcoa to try and fit.

If your new wheels are Alcoa see if you can find and Accuride to try to fit.

Try the same thing with Firestone wheels.

It may be just a matter of changing brands of wheels.

Ed
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Jerry32
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2007, 04:16:21 PM »

All the budd type wheels I have all measure about 14 " across. the wheels on the 4905 I have measure about 14.5 ' accross but they are hub centered not budd style??? are you sure you have the right wheels on your bus?Huh Jerry
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msheldon
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2007, 05:40:40 PM »

Are your new wheels Accuride or Alcoa? They both make steel wheels.

If your new wheels are Accuride see if you can find an Alcoa to try and fit.

If your new wheels are Alcoa see if you can find and Accuride to try to fit.

Try the same thing with Firestone wheels.

It may be just a matter of changing brands of wheels.

Ed

We tried accurides. When we looked in Alcoa's catalog, there was footnote on the steel wheels, * may not fit older coaches
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roadrunnertex
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2007, 05:43:54 PM »

I am sort of confused Huh  but I have old 2 Budd wheels out in the bus barn and these wheels are the kind that have the taper for the taper type lug nuts (Budd's)?
I measured the inside dish and it's around 14.50" across the flat area inside of the dish before it tapers out.
I do know this they will fit my P8M5905A inside dual or on the front.
So I do not have a clue about the PD4501 Scenicruiser rear tag hubs.
Please post a photo of your rear tag axle hub and drum perhaps we can figure something out.
jlv Tongue


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msheldon
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2007, 05:52:58 PM »

All the budd type wheels I have all measure about 14 " across. the wheels on the 4905 I have measure about 14.5 ' accross but they are hub centered not budd style??? are you sure you have the right wheels on your bus?Huh Jerry

The original coach manual calls for budd wheels. The shop has a couple other GMs in the lot, and all of them are running budd wheels.
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msheldon
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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2007, 05:56:16 PM »

I am sort of confused Huh  but I have old 2 Budd wheels out in the bus barn and these wheels are the kind that have the taper for the taper type lug nuts (Budd's)?
I measured the inside dish and it's around 14.50" across the flat area inside of the dish before it tapers out.
I do know this they will fit my P8M5905A inside dual or on the front.
So I do not have a clue about the PD4501 Scenicruiser rear tag hubs.
Please post a photo of your rear tag axle hub and drum perhaps we can figure something out.
jlv Tongue




Looks like you have some older wheels.

The tag drums/hubs are the same as the drive on the scenicruiser. Don't think a photo would help, they look just the same as a handful of other drums the shop had laying around, just 1/2" wider at the face.
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kyle4501
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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2007, 06:55:24 PM »

Hey Michael,
I just measured the drums on the 4501 drive axle in my garage - they measure 14". What is the cost of new brake drums? If you had to replace them, it'd probably be the last time you had to & if your old ones are still serviceable, you may be able to trade them to a 4501 owner for other needed parts ? ? ?

When you ordered the rims, did you tell them what they were going on? Seems they let you down.  Cry

A computerized plasma or laser cutter would be the most economical tool for making the spacers. Call local machine shops to find a recommendation of who can help. I'd recommend 3/16" thick steel & I would expect you to get 4 for ~$250 or less.

Good luck with your search.

kyle
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msheldon
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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2007, 09:57:08 PM »

Hey Michael,
I just measured the drums on the 4501 drive axle in my garage - they measure 14". What is the cost of new brake drums? If you had to replace them, it'd probably be the last time you had to & if your old ones are still serviceable, you may be able to trade them to a 4501 owner for other needed parts ? ? ?

I'm starting to get a sneaky suspicion that these drums are not original. On your rear drums, do they have "ventilation" holes all the way around the side an inch or so back from the face? That's what the ones in the original manual look like, mine don't have them.

Quote
When you ordered the rims, did you tell them what they were going on? Seems they let you down.  Cry

They were purchased from a local shop. I don't blame them, this situation is more than a little unusual.

Quote
A computerized plasma or laser cutter would be the most economical tool for making the spacers. Call local machine shops to find a recommendation of who can help. I'd recommend 3/16" thick steel & I would expect you to get 4 for ~$250 or less.

At that price, probably the cheapest solution.
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