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Author Topic: Looking for wheels  (Read 3360 times)
msheldon
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« on: October 26, 2007, 06:33:51 PM »

I ran into a very unexpected problem with my Scenicruiser.

When I got it, all the wheels on it were in very bad condition, and were not even all of the same type (none were original). So, I bought all brand-new 22.5" steel wheels for it.

Now that it's back in operating condition, we discovered a problem. Current manufacture steel wheels (both 22.5 and 24.5) are designed to fit closely to a 14" diameter brake drum face. Problem is, the brake drums on the 'cruiser are 14.5" across the face. Apparently the 14" standard came some time after 1954. What this means is that the new wheels do not quite make contact with the drum face due to the taper of the wheel. There is a gap somewhere around 1/8".

Alcoa aluminum wheels will fit, the aluminum wheels have a completely different shape. However, the cost of getting ten alcoas is prohibitive. Even getting just four would be beyond my budget, and putting the pretty aluminum wheels on the inners seems a bit strange. However, if that's my only choice...

What I would really like to find is a steel wheel with a wider face. Next choice would be a 14", 1/4" thick spacer plate. However, I'm really not finding anything.

Anyone run into this with an older coach?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 09:49:13 PM by msheldon » Logged
jackhartjr
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2007, 07:49:22 PM »

Hi Michael, I have been following this on the Scenicruiser 21 forum and it just hit me.  I think you have the HUB PILOT Wheels instead of the STUD PILOT wheels.  With Hub pilot wheels the hub itself centers the wheel.  With Stud pilot the stud does the centering.  The Cruisers would have had stud piloted wheels and brake drums.  I know a guy in TN that has the stud pilots, he was asking $50.00 each for them.  I feel that you could probably get something for yours.  (Assumming that you have hub pilot wheels.)
Hope that helps.
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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2007, 09:31:15 PM »

Hey Shelton. I just measured the ID on a Firestone and Budd steel wheel. (Standard truck) 11/24.5.-8.25. It measures 21 inches across the inside. Are your brake drums bigger than that?
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msheldon
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2007, 09:47:02 PM »

Hi Michael, I have been following this on the Scenicruiser 21 forum and it just hit me.  I think you have the HUB PILOT Wheels instead of the STUD PILOT wheels.

No, they're definitely stud-centered budd wheels, hub centered don't have the tapered lug holes that these have Smiley
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msheldon
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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2007, 09:48:49 PM »

Hey Shelton. I just measured the ID on a Firestone and Budd steel wheel. (Standard truck) 11/24.5.-8.25. It measures 21 inches across the inside. Are your brake drums bigger than that?

I'm not talking about the complete diameter of the inside of the wheel. I'm talking about the diameter of the "contact face" on the inside of the wheel where the drum actually contacts the wheel.
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2007, 08:36:20 AM »

I don't know where to find the proper wheels but how about cutting the centers out of some junk steel wheels to make spacers? Not orthodox but in my mind, I don't see any safety issues.

FWIW,

Len
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2007, 09:00:35 AM »

Hi msheldon,
If spacers will work for you, go to a welding or fabricating shop that has a computer controled plasma cutter. They will be able to make the spacers from either steel or aluminum and they will fit accurately if you provide them with accurate measurements. Better yet would be for you to take your bus or at least a wheel to them and they will take the measurements. When I had my shop I made new wheel centers for a log skidder when the owner put new complete axles under his skidder and the old wheel centers didn't match. If there isn't a shop near you that can do that I would be glad to recomend a shop here in La Crescent, MN.
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« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2007, 12:07:09 PM »

Are your new wheels Accuride or Alcoa? They both make steel wheels.

If your new wheels are Accuride see if you can find an Alcoa to try and fit.

If your new wheels are Alcoa see if you can find and Accuride to try to fit.

Try the same thing with Firestone wheels.

It may be just a matter of changing brands of wheels.

Ed
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2007, 04:16:21 PM »

All the budd type wheels I have all measure about 14 " across. the wheels on the 4905 I have measure about 14.5 ' accross but they are hub centered not budd style??? are you sure you have the right wheels on your bus?Huh Jerry
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msheldon
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2007, 05:40:40 PM »

Are your new wheels Accuride or Alcoa? They both make steel wheels.

If your new wheels are Accuride see if you can find an Alcoa to try and fit.

If your new wheels are Alcoa see if you can find and Accuride to try to fit.

Try the same thing with Firestone wheels.

It may be just a matter of changing brands of wheels.

Ed

We tried accurides. When we looked in Alcoa's catalog, there was footnote on the steel wheels, * may not fit older coaches
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2007, 05:43:54 PM »

I am sort of confused Huh  but I have old 2 Budd wheels out in the bus barn and these wheels are the kind that have the taper for the taper type lug nuts (Budd's)?
I measured the inside dish and it's around 14.50" across the flat area inside of the dish before it tapers out.
I do know this they will fit my P8M5905A inside dual or on the front.
So I do not have a clue about the PD4501 Scenicruiser rear tag hubs.
Please post a photo of your rear tag axle hub and drum perhaps we can figure something out.
jlv Tongue


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msheldon
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2007, 05:52:58 PM »

All the budd type wheels I have all measure about 14 " across. the wheels on the 4905 I have measure about 14.5 ' accross but they are hub centered not budd style??? are you sure you have the right wheels on your bus?Huh Jerry

The original coach manual calls for budd wheels. The shop has a couple other GMs in the lot, and all of them are running budd wheels.
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msheldon
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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2007, 05:56:16 PM »

I am sort of confused Huh  but I have old 2 Budd wheels out in the bus barn and these wheels are the kind that have the taper for the taper type lug nuts (Budd's)?
I measured the inside dish and it's around 14.50" across the flat area inside of the dish before it tapers out.
I do know this they will fit my P8M5905A inside dual or on the front.
So I do not have a clue about the PD4501 Scenicruiser rear tag hubs.
Please post a photo of your rear tag axle hub and drum perhaps we can figure something out.
jlv Tongue




Looks like you have some older wheels.

The tag drums/hubs are the same as the drive on the scenicruiser. Don't think a photo would help, they look just the same as a handful of other drums the shop had laying around, just 1/2" wider at the face.
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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2007, 06:55:24 PM »

Hey Michael,
I just measured the drums on the 4501 drive axle in my garage - they measure 14". What is the cost of new brake drums? If you had to replace them, it'd probably be the last time you had to & if your old ones are still serviceable, you may be able to trade them to a 4501 owner for other needed parts ? ? ?

When you ordered the rims, did you tell them what they were going on? Seems they let you down.  Cry

A computerized plasma or laser cutter would be the most economical tool for making the spacers. Call local machine shops to find a recommendation of who can help. I'd recommend 3/16" thick steel & I would expect you to get 4 for ~$250 or less.

Good luck with your search.

kyle
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msheldon
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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2007, 09:57:08 PM »

Hey Michael,
I just measured the drums on the 4501 drive axle in my garage - they measure 14". What is the cost of new brake drums? If you had to replace them, it'd probably be the last time you had to & if your old ones are still serviceable, you may be able to trade them to a 4501 owner for other needed parts ? ? ?

I'm starting to get a sneaky suspicion that these drums are not original. On your rear drums, do they have "ventilation" holes all the way around the side an inch or so back from the face? That's what the ones in the original manual look like, mine don't have them.

Quote
When you ordered the rims, did you tell them what they were going on? Seems they let you down.  Cry

They were purchased from a local shop. I don't blame them, this situation is more than a little unusual.

Quote
A computerized plasma or laser cutter would be the most economical tool for making the spacers. Call local machine shops to find a recommendation of who can help. I'd recommend 3/16" thick steel & I would expect you to get 4 for ~$250 or less.

At that price, probably the cheapest solution.
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2007, 05:54:14 AM »

Tire shops that cater to trucks have stacks of reject wheels out the back. Get 'heavy' wheels and torch out the 14" center for a spacer. They sell the wheels for scrap metal so return the part you don't need.  I did that on a 4501 tag axle so that I didn't have to run duals.
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2007, 06:26:46 AM »

Yes, they have the cooling slots.

With the position of the axles under the bus being what it is, you need to be careful in reducing the weight carried by the tag, might remove too much weight from the steer axle & make for poor driveability. - So watch the axle weights.

Stan's idea is a good one Grin, when you get them trued on a lathe, they can reduce the thickness too.

But in making the spacers, the thicker they are, the more stress on the studs. You may need to consider replacing your studs with longer ones.  Sad
Seems to cost more, no matter what you do   Sad

On the bright side, it is a PD4501  Grin
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msheldon
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« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2007, 12:15:26 AM »

Yes, they have the cooling slots.

Bloody heck. Mine don't, which means most likely they're not original. Who the heck would replace the original drums with something non-standard?

Quote
But in making the spacers, the thicker they are, the more stress on the studs. You may need to consider replacing your studs with longer ones.  Sad

I only want the spacer to be as thick as needed to get contact, which is around 1/8 - 3/16", probably less than the additional thickness of running aluminum wheels. I might need longer studs, but that's still cheaper than a couple other options.

Cutting the center from an existing wheel is definitely an option, the only issue is that the lug holes will be larger than the actual studs. Still, given how tight the wheels are to the hub, probably not that significant.
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Sojourner
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« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2007, 05:00:26 AM »

msheldon
The old rim that was use in tube type days are non taper but straight cylinder style in 3 or 2 pieces dismountable rim. All tubeless rims are design with taper to remove tire from rim.
You could go to an experience truck brake shop mechanic to get help about changing to a newer version drums and perhaps shoes as well. He can give you parts number that will remedy the problem. Spacer is my last choice but it your money how you want it done. In other word get brake drum that fit tubeless rim. Most class “8” air brake’s drum & shoe are just matter of size in ID & Width, 10 holes (USA) and are design for tubeless rim.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 04:13:12 PM by Sojourner » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2007, 06:49:02 AM »

I'm with Jerry - last choice would be spacers - you want that rim up tight against the brake drum IMHO.  But I sympathize with your plight.  Trying to find a truck shop employee that knows anything and gives a d@mn is no fun.  I spent all day last Wednesday running to the NAPA truck store in town and listening to the doofus behind the counter say "obsolete" before I finally gave up and called Prevost.  Turned out they were cheaper by about 1/2 and the guy on the other end of the line actually knew what he was talking about.

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msheldon
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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2007, 09:26:46 AM »

At this point, I'm looking at spacers as a temporary solution, so I can get the bus back on its wheels. In its current state, it's only making short trips from storage to home to various shops as I restore it. The long term solution would be to either find original drums or some other replacement drums that will fit standard wheels.
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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2007, 04:03:05 PM »

Quote from: msheldon
Bloody heck. Mine don't, which means most likely they're not original. Who the heck would replace the original drums with something non-standard?

Someone looking to save a buck by using the cheapest part they could find! Not that ANY of us would ever be guilty of that!  LOL!
Grin  BK  Grin
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Sojourner
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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2007, 04:44:20 PM »

msheldon
For temporary fix…if it about 1/8” gap….then build steel shim or spacer at least 1/4 “ thick should allow extra clearance for drum heat expansion (increase diameter) and rim’s road bump flexing from hitting drum. 
PS…later and when you can, I would replace old “dismountable” rim type drum to have new inter drum’s surface and better yet more fine material. Tubeless rim is safer & easier to replace tire. You are in the long run did the right thing about purchasing tubeless rims.

Wish you well getting it transport to your project area.

Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
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msheldon
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« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2007, 07:10:01 PM »

Just an update.

My mech talked to a couple of GM guys and found that the MCI-9 drums will fit the cruiser. I'm going to go with the spacer plates for the immediate short-term, since replacing the drums on both axles will run me around $3K by the time all is said and done, and right now I'm just running the bus back and forth across town while working on it. But I will be getting the drums replaced some time in the next year or so.

It's always something  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2007, 11:14:03 AM »

Quote from: msheldon
I'm going to go with the spacer plates for the immediate short-term, since replacing the drums on both axles will run me around $3K But I will be getting the drums replaced some time in the next year or so.

It's always something  Roll Eyes         

$3K ? Huh Huh, where? I guess I ain't charg'n enough!
Grin  BK  Grin

You could bing it here and still have cash left after paying for fuel $
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Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
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