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Author Topic: I'm a rookie/ won't start on COOL days  (Read 3476 times)
Stone
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67 MCI 5A Challenger 8V71 allison MT644




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« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2007, 05:24:38 PM »

Hello:    Mike from Dunnellon fl..  72 mci 7     Have a relative in Washington Pa  .. south of Pittsburg.. (same town ??)  hope to be up there next spring. Will get in touch  if it is all right with you..  FWIW  always used the block heater for 2 hours when back in upstate NY.  never failed  45 or below .     Happy Bussin    mike   
Hello Mike that would be great... I would like to meet you ..I live in the country and have  plenty of room to park and can provide electrical 30 amp for a guest .. You are welcome to chill here for a few days if you need ....(like Walmart )  I am a self employed cabinet maker here in Washington PA 15301....Call my shop phone anytime 724 345 8289 Ron Heckathorne    Heckathorne Custom Woodworking..........
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Dreamscape
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« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2007, 05:27:41 PM »

Great, another cabinet maker on the board! Maybe you and Cody should get together and put on a seminar at one of the rallies! Like maybe TBR 2008.

Or any other rally that could benefit from your expertise.

I know I sure could.  Wink

I almost apologize for hijacking the thread.  Grin

Paul
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Stone
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67 MCI 5A Challenger 8V71 allison MT644




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« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2007, 05:44:36 PM »

Great, another cabinet maker on the board! Maybe you and Cody should get together and put on a seminar at one of the rallies! Like maybe TBR 2008.

Or any other rally that could benefit from your expertise.

I know I sure could.  Wink

I almost apologize for hijacking the thread.  Grin

Paul
  Hey Paul where is TBR2008 ? ///  Huh ???Question I noticed some of you have a photo of your bus on the left of the thread ....I don't see my 5A on mine but I did upload it ....Maybe I am not doing something right Huh
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Barn Owl
Roanoke, VA
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PD4106-1063 "Wheezy Bus"




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« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2007, 05:44:54 PM »

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I just thought there may be an easy fix or a trick you folks know that I did not....

......ether...... Wink
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 08:26:39 PM by Barn Owl » Logged

L. Christley - W3EYE Amateur Extra
Blue Ridge Mountains, S.W. Virginia
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Have fun, be great, that way you have Great Fun!
Stone
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67 MCI 5A Challenger 8V71 allison MT644




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« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2007, 05:47:08 PM »

I'm LOST Undecided
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Tim Strommen
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« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2007, 05:49:28 PM »

Generally 2-strokes don't like cold.  They were designed to be running at a fairly high temperature - colder block temperatures leach heat from the compression chambers and make it harder for the diesel fuel to auto-ignite under the high-pressure.  The quick compress-and-soak meathod works for me, but it can take a few trys to get the mill running (something that may not be possible with less-than-perfect batteries/electrical.


I don't think this was covered - but:

You recently replaced your batteries (8D's you said - good choice, lots of cranking power available).  What is the condition of the cables from the batteries to the starter and mill?  If there are any devices (fuses, shunts, switches) between your positive terminal on the batteries and the positive terrminal on the starter (assuming here a negative ground system) - remove them (fuses should not be in the start circuit - although, there should be a fuse within 8" of your alternator especially if it is wired to the positive terminal of the starter).  A large gauge cable (0 - 0000) should be used for your starter connection to the batteries as the starter draws tremendous currents to get that high compression ratio squeezed.  A thin wire (I consider anything "thin" if it's 2-gauge and up), or devices in line, or even corrosion on the positive/ground paths will add series resistance to the circuit thereby acting as a current limiting device for that circuit (and the last thing you want to do is limit the ammount of current going to the starter!!).

On some rigs, the mill is not directly grounded to the chassis with a cable (which it should be - in fact as an upgrade, the same gauge or larger than the positive should be used to connect the starter back to the battery ground) - in this case there may be rubberized vibration isolators keeping the return path for the voltage in a high-resistance state (i.e. the voltage return path and current souce will need to find a way through the path of least resistance - this can even be your transmission-gears/driven-axle-bearings in the worst case).  If you don't have a ground strap and the resistance from the mill to chassis ground is more than 1-Ohm, add one.

With a DMM, check your start-bank voltage before you crank the engine and watch what happens to the voltage when you crank.  On a 12-volt system with good batteries this shouldn't get below 9-volts on the low side in the cold.  On a 24-volt system with good batteries this shouldn't get any lower than 17-volts.  Both of these values are "at the battery".

At the starter you shouldn't see any more than .5-Volt difference from the battery voltage during the start.  If you see something like 1 or more volts lower than the batteries, a lot of your cranking current is being wasted to the wiring/ground.

If you have a ground strap from the mill to the frame, double check with a DMM that the resistance from the mill to the frame is less than .75-Ohms.  If it's higher than that - pull the strap, and check the ground points for corrosion (especially important if your rig is on the east coast where they use salt!!!).  Make sure the points are clean and after you've put the strap back in, spray the points with anti-corrosion spray for battery terminals.  If you have to pull the strap, check to make sure it isn't the source of the resistance (measure at each end to see the strap's resistance).  If the strap shows significant resistance, replace it (and while you're at it, make it bigger Wink).



As a build-on to Hi yo silver's idea about having a breif load to warm the batteries, consider a chassis-voltage air heater between the blower and the intake plenum (I believe Kim-Hotstart makes these).  This should warm the air in the intake plenum (after the roots blower) enough to help ignition during compression (and will let a bit of heat into the side of the cylindar walls from the plenum cavity), and would have the side effect of raising the temperature of the batteries due to the load (so they may be able to put out a bit more current during cranking).  If you do this, I recommend that you not have a simple toggle-switch to turn it on (as you may forget about it, and suck down all of that starting power), so use a push-button (good), or a dial-timer switch (even better).  You'll also want to make sure you can't use it while the engine is running (once at temp engine's like cool air) - so a relay that "breaks" this circuit once the Run-Stop switch is set to "On/Run" would be a good idea (you can even go further, so that the heater circuit will stay active until you press the start button - and use the start pulse to initially energize the air-heater lock-out relay through a diode, and with a double-pole-double-throw relay, have it self maintain as long as the run switch is on).  I whipped up a quick wiring diagram to explain what I mean... (attached below).

When I picked up my bus from LTD in Oregon, the mechanic had to do the "crank, wait 30 seconds, crank" to start the engine (Williams air-throttle) and hold in the throttle on from the back as it had been sitting in high-altitude/<40DegF-weather-for-over-a-week (with poorly charged batteries).

Cheers!

-Tim
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 06:06:41 PM by Tim Strommen » Logged

Fremont, CA
1984 Gillig Phantom 40/102
DD 6V92TA (MUI, 275HP) - Allison HT740
Conversion Progress: 10% (9-years invested, 30 to go Smiley)
Dreamscape
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« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2007, 06:02:39 PM »

Ron,

I sent you a personal message as to not hijack your thread.

Paul
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TomC
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« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2007, 06:26:55 PM »

Just so you all know- the spray starter fluid is spelled ether- not either. 

One of the big draws to a 2 stroke is its ease of starting in cold weather.  It was amazing this last May when we went up to Alaska on a cruise, how many 2 strokers I still saw in service.  When I asked a couple of the drivers, the universal response was that they start much easier in cold weather than the 4 strokers- and this is also my experience.

Once again-if you have to use ether or a heater when it is only below 40 degrees, your engine is worn out and/or needs a good tune up.  It should start unaided down to 25 degrees- I started my in -25 degree weather with just two shots of ether.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Stone
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67 MCI 5A Challenger 8V71 allison MT644




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« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2007, 07:43:35 PM »

I never use either ...should I ?   I was told that spraying either in a diesel could make it go the wrong direction ...So I don't use it on a diesel......I tried it on a farm tractor once and it tried to go backwards..
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Stone
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67 MCI 5A Challenger 8V71 allison MT644




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« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2007, 07:56:58 PM »

I warmed my engine to normal temp ....looked at the tail pipe , both breather hoses from the top of the valve covers & pulled the dip stick out and gassed her up and slowed her down several times to see if I had any BLOW BY  and I got none.....will this tell me the condition of my engines life worn or not Huh??
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Barn Owl
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« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2007, 08:29:15 PM »

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Just so you all know- the spray starter fluid is spelled ether- not either.

That's what happens when I try to do a 10 sec post at work. I am amazed at how much better I spell at home. Embarrassed
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L. Christley - W3EYE Amateur Extra
Blue Ridge Mountains, S.W. Virginia
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Have fun, be great, that way you have Great Fun!
Jerry32
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« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2007, 06:24:30 AM »

I started the 8V71 in the 4905 a few mornings ago and it was down in the mid 20's . it only started on one cyl and and then two and finally all 8. Jerry
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1988 MCI 102A3 8V92TA 740
lyndon
1988 MC-9 DDC 6V92TA Fuller T-11605D
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« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2007, 04:40:05 PM »

Quote
Just so you all know- the spray starter fluid is spelled ether- not either.

That's what happens when I try to do a 10 sec post at work. I am amazed at how much better I spell at home. Embarrassed

Either ether or either,
For my bus it's neither!

I'd rather warm the engine (somehow) first, than risk playing around with that stuff.

Don
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Don
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« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2007, 06:00:04 PM »

My 671 was designed to use ether and it works very well. It is not always convenient to plug in a block heater.

Ether is like electricity or Nitorgen gas cylinders, if you are careless you will do yourself and/or others great harm. But if you are careful you can do great things.

Ether is also excellent for completely removing grease/oil from small areas when they must be absolutely clean. I learned this one from a young, very smart DD Service Mgr in Kansas City who found my severe oil leak in a matter of minutes.
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« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2007, 01:34:01 PM »

There is a trick you can do that many times works for cold day start.  You have to start it from the back and be able to reach the governor also.  What you do is in the back, switch to rear engine on, then with your fingers, or a pliers, hold the on/off lever of the governor in the off position.  Hit the starter button and hold continuously.  When the engine has been cranking for a  count of 10, slowly open the on/off lever you are holding, and the engine should start.  What makes this work, is that the timing on the injectors is being altered also with the on/off on the governor, which makes cold starting easier.  I've used it several times, and have yet to use ether on my engine-course I've only been in down to 25 degree weather, and my engine is fresh.  Give it a try though.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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