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Author Topic: OT: A program on TV yesterday about Alternativs fuels.  (Read 2935 times)
superpickle
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« on: November 14, 2007, 04:40:42 PM »

One part was about a guy in LA that will convert your Diesel to Bio/Frier oil.. The said you can get Cotten seed oil to run well but Reclaimed Frier oil is the Best..
they didnt say a Word, about Getting charged with useing Illeagle Fues and getting a Huge Fine...


made me want to call someone and Yell at them..

Paul..... Huh
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2007, 06:07:35 PM »

Quote
made me want to call someone and Yell at them..

Paul..... 
What do you mean, Paul? Who/why would you yell?

  I was just over on the Bio/WVO thread in the Help section looking that over again. There is a ton of info there if you are looking for more info on the stuff.

  Chaz
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2007, 08:24:19 PM »

Paul, there are those who will probably take me to task for offering this advice...but it goes back to the days when I was living on the farm with my Dad, one of the brightest guys I'd ever known, when he used to say, "Son, now let me tell you where the bear $hit in the buckwheat."...and I knew he meant business.......

You're sitting on about a $12,000 engine that was designed by the Engineers to run on Diesel Fuel.  It's yours...you own it and are responsible for its' repair and maintenance.

My question to you and all the other "alternative fuel" aficionados is:

Are you willing to gamble $12,000 of your future against a technology that was not approved by the people who designed the engine you're running in favor of the people who are making money with a prospective money saving vision which might cost them nothing ...but you... a year of college for one of your children?

Just thought I'd ask........

Bob
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2007, 08:32:36 PM »

I do not know a tremendous amount about this subject, but commercial biodiesel is available here for about $3.30/gallon.  I thought that it was approved for most engines.  Although, from what I understand, you will need to remove incompatible rubber parts from your fuel system and be prepared to change out fuel filters often until the old diesel crud is washed out (one could steam the fuel tank instead).  It is something I would consider doing.
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2007, 08:59:02 PM »

 Huh

I think your Missing the point. They were telling how Grate this stuff is and that we would do well to Use it..
But they say NOTHING about the  Gestapo checking out your vehicle to see if you are Using Illegal Fuels. IE, the Fryer Oil.. and Fining you for it.. and making you buy a Fuel manufacturer Licence and Bond,for thousands of dollars. 
Does that Not sound like they are leaving out a Very important issue.

Is this Propaganda..
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2007, 09:15:05 PM »

Illegal fuels? I'm not too well educated on bio-fuels, but jeez, I though you Americans had a free country down there. Can you really be fined for burning transfat in your diesel bus? I don't think we even have a law to prevent hooking the black tank to the engine, if you could figure out a way to make it work. Not that I'm planning to, or anything....

Don
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2007, 10:23:36 PM »

Pickle, Call it a "fuel addative" as your vehicle cannot run on it alone you must start and shut down on diesel. (WVO) No tax.

Bob, I'm in the process of converting my bus to WVO. My only concern is the DDEC and electronic injectors. I am gathering all the info I can and the parts. WVO cleaned in a centrifuge looks like ice tea or pee. If your system is properly set up and you clean your oil properly it will work fine and not hurt your engine, if you don't your asking for trouble. Diesel engines were originally invented to run on veggie oil.

Always thinking outside the box until they put me in it.
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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2007, 07:41:31 AM »

Right on Charley.
  This is SUCH an interesting topic. But if someone doesn't want to do/use it, that is sooooo perfectly OK! But for those who do, I think it will help them and  maybe the earth a little bit. (If you wonder if I care about the earth, check out my house.) 
  I know, and you know, that there are thousands of people out there doing it and they have been for MANY years! Some are our own busnut friends right here on this board! But they don't like to speak out because of how much of a controversy some people feel it has to be. Sure, you can always find an occasional story that didn't work for some reason, but that was because of either the Law of Averages or fate or stupidity or lack of knowledge on how to do it . I can only imagine how many detractors there was about the 1. internal combustion engine  2. electricity  3. airplanes etc. etc.  And someone can ALWAYS find one story in 10,000 and say "SEE, SEE, SEE I told ya so, I told ya so." (IE. just look at politics!  Wink  Sorry, another touchy subject, I'm sure!  Wink ) While the rest go merrily on down the road for just a little effort and a little money.
  The fact remains that it does work and very well if done correctly. (Your right about the filtering. And heating of the oil is very important also.) I am in the process of getting my system together and will be more than glad to share as time goes on. There are definitely things to know and research to be done. I'm still doing that as I get the $$$ to set this up. ("artist', ya know  Undecided    Grin
  As far as legalities go.................... well, ya know, maybe I shouldn't do this as I have NEVER EVER broken or even stretched a law in my LIFE!!!! "Honest Chief"!!!! (that quote is for all you old Navy "salts"  Grin) At present, yeah there is a little discrepancy out there about laws. Our "ILLUSTRIOUS Lawmakers" (cough, choke, weez) aren't sure how to go about this. (It actually makes them think) One story did make the news. ( "See, see, I told ya!! I told ya!!") but I think for the most part it's like the old Military rule - "Don't ask, don't tell". But I'm sure there are some authorities out there that may be on the watch. But I haven't heard much.  I intend to keep good records in case it does become an issue. I mean, what is the tax on fuel?? .30 , .40 , .50 a gallon?Huh?? I'll pay that!!!!!!!!! Hell yes!!! That would be fair. At least I wasn't lining the pockets of those "#$%@&*^%$#@" overseas!!
  So hey guys, can I just say - or ask - if we DO get into this topic yet again, which I hope we can as I TRULY DO BELIEVE it can help those that want to do it, please, be kind. Playing "devils advocate" is a GOOD thing as long as it's in a - shall we say - "knowledgable way". Otherwise it just turns into a "pi$$in match" and accomplishes nothing. Except maybe for the blood pressure medication company making more money!  Wink  Oh, and make our "Fantasticly wonderful, extremely knowledgeable, and good looking moderators" work a little harder.  Grin

  Anyway, I guess just think about it.
      Ol' greasy Chaz   Grin
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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2007, 07:48:16 AM »

Quote from: Chaz
Wink  Oh, and make our "Fantasticly wonderful, extremely knowledgeable, and good looking moderators" work a little harder.  Grin

  Anyway, I guess just think about it.
      Ol' greasy Chaz   Grin

Chaz I was with ya right up to here! Have ya bumped yer head 'er, do you know someone I don't? LOL!
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2007, 08:05:39 AM »

Like I told my son-in-law when he started his bus. If it works for you ,do it, If it wont work for you ,dont do it.Just because I did it doesnt make it the right or wrong way to do it.
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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2007, 08:08:40 AM »

One part was about a guy in LA that will convert your Diesel to Bio/Frier oil.. The said you can get Cotten seed oil to run well but Reclaimed Frier oil is the Best..
they didnt say a Word, about Getting charged with useing Illeagle Fues and getting a Huge Fine...


made me want to call someone and Yell at them..

Paul..... Huh

Just what is your problem? Undecided Undecided Undecided

SP - Are you Bi-Polar or something, These Rants just have to level out!!!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked

Back to the real subject,

These programs have been on TV for a while now. In every instance there is usually something wrong with the way things are presented. You know like underlying factors that the writers and producers ( Ignorant people ) just couldn't get right if their lives depended on it.

Anyone on the boards here can find out everything they want to know on the subject of WVO / SVO and Biodiesel if you either ask or take the time to look.

I have run WVO with some success, However it's not for everyone and does create problems of one type or another depending on how you set things up.

The legal issues are not important unless you live in California...( CARB ).. What a bunch of LOONEY Birds...The Taxman has enough problems trying to enforce red diesel rules and the entry of untaxed or untaxable fuels just irritates the PEEFUDDLE out of them.

From what I have seen the taxman is more interested in commercial use of alternate fuels than hobby uses. ( Unless you are in a state that has LOONEYS in charge. )..... Sad Sad Sad

From the EPA standpoint Veggie is a cleaner fuel, It doesn't add CO it returns it back. The spills and cleanup are simple. It breaks down into elemental sugars naturally. No expensive cleanup for spills. A little bio-detergents and it's gone.

Murphy Oil soap is made from veggie and it works! - No hazzard there.

The chemists need to figure out a way to treat it so that aircraft could use veggie, That would save billions of dollars on fuel bills and lower operating costs. There are aircraft engines being developed and certified for using diesel ( and Bio / Veggie ) that are far more fuel efficient than anything currently flying.

Jet engines all need to be using 1-1 Carbon fuels. ( Veggie Based ) This would also help farmers who would grow the crops that fuel is derived from. New crops and advanced growing systems could solve problem and even feed the world as a side effect.

I expect this message to either get edited or removed. Some people don't like the way I say things sometimes. NO I don't know everything and never expect to.... Sorry....

Dave.....
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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2007, 08:16:35 AM »

From the (limited) research I have done on the issue, the legal issue is a matter of taxation.  You can interact with the govt. in many ways stirring up the pot, just don't touch the coffers!  The politicians need that money to buy votes.  In this case, the politicians have not figured out how to appropriately charge the taxes they would normally receive from the fuel.

This is really no different from agricultural areas where you can buy "road" diesel and "off-road" diesel.  They do checkpoints to dip fuel from diesel vehicles and heaven forbid that you are running "off-road" diesel in your "on-road" vehicle...big time fines. 

I agree with Chaz.  Keep a log of gallons consumed so that you can show "intent" to pay if they ever create the mechanism.  I think they would find it difficult to penalize you for not paying the taxes if they haven't created a means to do so, especially if you can show that you kept the necessary records to be able to pay when the time came.  And, historically, once they do create such taxes, they rarely make you go back and pay retroactively.

Of course, this is all "pie-in-the-sky" for me until I come up with the $$$...but one can always dream....
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2007, 08:18:32 AM »

Dave,

A well written position on biofuels and alternative energy. Other than the first part, I would change nothing in it. But then I am guilty of expressing my opinions loudly too.

DF


One part was about a guy in LA that will convert your Diesel to Bio/Frier oil.. The said you can get Cotten seed oil to run well but Reclaimed Frier oil is the Best..
they didnt say a Word, about Getting charged with useing Illeagle Fues and getting a Huge Fine...


made me want to call someone and Yell at them..

Paul..... Huh

Just what is your problem? Undecided Undecided Undecided

SP - Are you Bi-Polar or something, These Rants just have to level out!!!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked

Back to the real subject,

These programs have been on TV for a while now. In every instance there is usually something wrong with the way things are presented. You know like underlying factors that the writers and producers ( Ignorant people ) just couldn't get right if their lives depended on it.

Anyone on the boards here can find out everything they want to know on the subject of WVO / SVO and Biodiesel if you either ask or take the time to look.

I have run WVO with some success, However it's not for everyone and does create problems of one type or another depending on how you set things up.

The legal issues are not important unless you live in California...( CARB ).. What a bunch of LOONEY Birds...The Taxman has enough problems trying to enforce red diesel rules and the entry of untaxed or untaxable fuels just irritates the PEEFUDDLE out of them.

From what I have seen the taxman is more interested in commercial use of alternate fuels than hobby uses. ( Unless you are in a state that has LOONEYS in charge. )..... Sad Sad Sad

From the EPA standpoint Veggie is a cleaner fuel, It doesn't add CO it returns it back. The spills and cleanup are simple. It breaks down into elemental sugars naturally. No expensive cleanup for spills. A little bio-detergents and it's gone.

Murphy Oil soap is made from veggie and it works! - No hazzard there.

The chemists need to figure out a way to treat it so that aircraft could use veggie, That would save billions of dollars on fuel bills and lower operating costs. There are aircraft engines being developed and certified for using diesel ( and Bio / Veggie ) that are far more fuel efficient than anything currently flying.

Jet engines all need to be using 1-1 Carbon fuels. ( Veggie Based ) This would also help farmers who would grow the crops that fuel is derived from. New crops and advanced growing systems could solve problem and even feed the world as a side effect.

I expect this message to either get edited or removed. Some people don't like the way I say things sometimes. NO I don't know everything and never expect to.... Sorry....

Dave.....

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« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2007, 08:25:01 AM »

WHAT you say Dave, is right on the money. I'm backin ya. And don't forget that people like to - shall we say - "skip" a detail in the story, or two, to make it fit their belief or agenda. Thats a VERY VERY common practice of most ALL human beings.
   But it IS hard to tell HOW you are saying it sometimes thru the "printed word", Dave. Sounds like you are maybe a little aggrevated or frustrated. I concur. So am I. But hopefully it doesn't offend anyone as you have valid points in my book.

  BK,
    I, I, I think I remember falling down the stairs this morning Huh Embarrassed Undecided  Oh well......... and how are you today, Sister Mary Elephant??  Cheesy
 
    Yeah, just a little "sucking up there"!! LOLOLOLOLOLOL I have had a little bit of my responses "deleted" in the past so I'm fishin for brownies!!  Cheesy LOLOLOL  (did it work??  Wink)

   Chaz
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2007, 08:30:48 AM »

Never thought of that, with either brain, I guess i could be By Polar..  Grin

Although ive never been to Either..


My rant is that We get Lied to at every turn and it goes on and on..

And, those two guys are still fighting it in court and spending Thousands in Leaglal fees.. to do it..

All because they THOUGHT this was a FREE country too..




Yup, im nuts,, Im causing decent in the ranks.. SHOOT ME...  Tongue Kiss Kiss Kiss
Dont worry, i wont be doing anything until i get at least 10,000 rounds saved up..
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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2007, 08:31:35 AM »

so I'm fishin for brownies!!  Cheesy LOLOLOL  (did it work??  Wink)

   Chaz

Chaz you may want to be careful of the "brownies" you catch while fishing in the "porcelain pond" LOL!
BTW you are welcome to come down and enjoy the hospitality and services of our completly available shop anytime! Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2007, 09:12:42 AM »

Never thought of that, with either brain, I guess i could be By Polar..  Grin

Although ive never been to Either..


My rant is that We get Lied to at every turn and it goes on and on..

And, those two guys are still fighting it in court and spending Thousands in Leaglal fees.. to do it..

All because they THOUGHT this was a FREE country too..




Yup, im nuts,, Im causing decent in the ranks.. SHOOT ME...  Tongue Kiss Kiss Kiss
Dont worry, i wont be doing anything until i get at least 10,000 rounds saved up..

We are all NUTZ to some extent. Sorry, Didn't mean to demean. Roll Eyes

Over the years the editorial content of many publications and TV has been degraded by budget, facts and time spent on content or just plain lop-sided failure to research something before writing or shooting the segment. Many writers fail to actually know what they are doing or talking about. They take the first "expert" that they think knows more than they do and run with it.

There is a lot of viable information available if you actually take the time to look for it and I am one of those people that tend to look and try things before I make some editorial comment. I make mistakes and also make serious omissions at times.

There is also a bunch of MIS-Information out there. This is due in part to ignorance or even tampering with a subject to direct people away from what is really the truth if there is such a thing.

As things are there are quite a number of subjects that are purposely mis-directed...

WVO /SVO & Biodiesel
UFO and Aliens
Government Waste
Political Office Candidates ( degree in GREED required! )( Same as High pressure salesman )
Human Rights for Native Real Citizens
Health Insurance
Doctors (that Know medicine and are not just "Practicing"(sic) )
Medicines & Actual Cures for Disease
EPA
California ( CARB )
Oil Production
Oil Company Profits
TSA & Homeland Security
Copyright Act & Piracy

All fall into the category that is under "Oxymoron"

Would I use Veggie - YES
Have I used Veggie - YES
Did I have Problems - YES ( Not mechanical problems however )
Is it a useful "additive" - YES
Is it a useful primary fuel - NO (qualified answer: Due to convenience )
Do I still use it? - YES (qualified: To extend taxed fuel supply only )
Would I recommend Veggie? - YES ( For experimental use only )( subjective )
Would I suggest WVO to a new person? - NO ( Source of supply needed before spending $$)

I guess the bottom line is that IF you are thinking about using veggie or alternatives and you are not a mechanically inclined person who depends on others to actually do your own maintenance and service This is NOT for you. Just that simple.

Filters and filter systems cost money and require constant attention. Storage systems must be built and all hazzards including risk of loss must be considered. Risk to engines is real or as real as anything else. We all risk engine damage from polluted fuel from a dirty storage tank or pipeline. If you exercise due care you may be OK, But if you ignore any part of the process you could have a loss.

" Having all the ammo isn't the problem, It's having something to put the ammo into that's the primary problem. "

Have a Great Day.....

Dave.......
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2007, 10:52:10 AM »

I don't know if it was the same program but I watched one that ended with a compressed air powered car. The car and it's inventors was pretty reasonable but the program's writer came up with adding a compressed air generator to the car so you could run an air compressor while you drove and you could have a Perpetual Motion Machine. Pretty much blew the credibility of the program's producers and writers for me. For more on Perpetual Motion Machines (most were issued patents, none work) check http://www.todayinsci.com/Books/MechApp/chap23/page2.htm
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2007, 12:11:13 PM »

Quote from: Chaz
Wink  Oh, and make our "Fantasticly wonderful, extremely knowledgeable, and good looking moderators" work a little harder.  Grin

  Anyway, I guess just think about it.
      Ol' greasy Chaz   Grin

Chaz I was with ya right up to here! Have ya bumped yer head 'er, do you know someone I don't? LOL!
Grin  BK  Grin

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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2007, 02:50:21 PM »

I dunno Richard.................. I may have to recant.  Lips Sealed    Wink

 I'm wondering why this thread got moved??  Huh Huh Huh  You didn't have ANYTHING to do with this did you??

  I'd be curious as to why someone would not consider fuel for our bus's not bus related??  AND we were playing nice!!!  Undecided  I can't say as I had much to do with that, but I was trying to keep us on the straight and narrow so as to at least not get deleted.

  If, for some reason, fuels for our bus's are going to be on the "taboo list", personally, I'd like to know. I think it is a VERY interesting topic that can and should be - especially nowadays -  discussed for many reasons. None the of less of which is to help save us money so we can play with our bus's MORE!!!! And the savings are DIRECTLY connected to the bus, as opposed to saving money on groceries or something, where that money could be used for something else.

  Please let me know. (I just KNOW you want to be back on that list of "good looking moderators"!!   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy)

    Chaz
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2007, 03:09:14 PM »

You guy's are correct...

This thread is NOT "OT"
I moved it back to the main BB
Nick-
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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2007, 03:10:45 PM »

Capt Ron,

Here is your post..


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« on: Today at 05:11:34 PM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The alternative fuel post was moved to off thread but other actual off thread posts were left in the regular area. I thought it was kinda settled a few days ago ALL OT topics would and should be posted in that section. The alternative fuel topic is not really OT it pertains to buses and some of us.

This thread in particular is a blatant violation of the rules by someone who made their first and only post but should know better. 
Post topic:  busand diesel Advice from a semi old timer

Howdy folks

I've owned about 80 buses, about 3 large trucks, 3 medium trucks, 5 fire trucks, about 15 pickups, and a lot of associated cars and machines.  I've also dismantled about 25 buses, and several pickups, and god knows what else.

If you need advice on diesel stuff or mechanics in general, or (!) want to buy a good used Crown or Gillig bus or fire truck, or parts, feel free to drop me a line.

My email is WheelchairBusProject@yahoo.com  and my phones are (559) 251-3814  or  (559) 244-1042 
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2007, 03:25:47 PM »

Thanx Nick.
  I was really wondering what was happening. Actually, I'm still a little cofused about your last post in this thread. But no worry, I'm happy to be back on track with the fuel thing. Actually, now that I know we can play with that topic, I may just start a new one and have a fresh start. We can then let these other ones go by the wayside then.

  Thanx Nick.   (ok, you can be one of the "good looking" moderators too!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

   Chaz
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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2007, 01:18:17 PM »

Hey guys, it was me. I am still having some problems with my computer and could not get back in to correct my screwup. Sorry.
Richard
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Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a good Reisling in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming:  WOO HOO, what a ride
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2007, 02:33:48 PM »

No problem. You can be "good looking" again.   Grin Grin Grin

 I was just concerned that this topic was going to be taboo. I'm glad it's not. It may be a little contraversial, but I think it a very beneficial one also.

  Thanx!!
     Chaz
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2007, 03:12:02 PM »

Hey guys, it was me. I am still having some problems with my computer and could not get back in to correct my screwup. Sorry.
Richard

You do know that a good sized boot will fix that computer problem.....ONCE!

The CD drawer is NOT a coffee cup holder..... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2007, 04:25:40 PM »

Hey guys, it was me. I am still having some problems with my computer and could not get back in to correct my screwup. Sorry.
Richard

You do know that a good sized boot will fix that computer problem.....ONCE!

The CD drawer is NOT a coffee cup holder..... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Yea, and I am about to give it a steel toed size 12. lol

Richard
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Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a good Reisling in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming:  WOO HOO, what a ride
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« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2007, 04:30:23 PM »

Hey guys, it was me. I am still having some problems with my computer and could not get back in to correct my screwup. Sorry.
Richard

You do know that a good sized boot will fix that computer problem.....ONCE!

The CD drawer is NOT a coffee cup holder..... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Ya mean, its Not a Pizza tray either  Sad.. Hmmmpf..
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« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2007, 10:55:19 AM »

Chaz...Dr. Dave,

You guys are the greatest.  I am feeling much better now ( a quote of "Hal" in 2001 but has no relationship).  never enjoyed reading an exchange more.   AND it had bus content, too.


SP,

Hats off to you and your alligator hide.

Thank you all.  Hope my strong endorsement isn't accepted as an insult.

John
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« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2007, 07:12:01 PM »

Not at all John. I'm glad someone/others get some benefit from this. I know it's good, and it just seems that the people who use it are.............. I assume........... tired of promoting, defending, justifying, (whatever the word is) their use, and the use of something that is very beneficial to them and others. I mean, hey, why should they care or put the energy into helping people if it takes a bunch of their time and they get grief over it.
  I could be way off base here, but, it seems that way. I LOVE good debate. It benefits us all. I makes people think more and harder. It brings up ideas others - like me - who are sold on the idea be a little more cautious and make sure I/we do it correctly.  But sometimes it goes past "debate".
  Anyway, off the soapbox. I don't need to cause another s**t storm.

 Keep pluggin,
    Chaz
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« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2007, 01:43:21 PM »

Hmmm.... Maybe we spoke too soon.  It seems that some govt. types are starting to take notice of the missing fuel tax revenue...

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/599471.html
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« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2007, 02:19:08 PM »

Wow!...lots of interesting posts on this topic.  Since it does relate kinda with coaches I need to understands some stuff.  First thing we (I) need to do is understand the definitions of the many various buzz words being bounced around.

First off, just what is "biodiesel"?  Is there a good, agreed upon definition?  I dunno.  Is it 5% vege oil?  10% vege?  I might suggest that the common demonimater (sp) is that we have people hyping this product.  Is there a $profit$ motive in all of this?

Probably.  Not that that is bad in itself, but we should sit back and understand that individuals are backing/promoting this product because they may "gleen" some sort of $advantage$.  The human condition.  Again, nothing wrong with that.

Where does the vege oil come from?  American/Canadian agriculture techinques are very fuel intensive.  Everything seems to grow not only from sunlight, water, CO2 and soil nutrientants, (sp) but from fossil fuel required to "fuel" the total process.

Are we just "gleening" a temporary nitch in a greater process?  Might be.  And...if someone where to do the math (beyond my feeble mind) we might just find that with all things considered, it may just be cheaper AND BETTER to burn fossil fuel.  Easier on everything.

The danger of all this "hype" about bio-diesel is that a few (some?) people just conclude that it's good for themselves and the planet when, if completely analyzed, the process does little or nothing and actually at times may actually have a negative impact.  Just my thoughts.  Thanks.    Smiley Smiley Smiley
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