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Author Topic: Waste Vegy Oil and Bio thread.  (Read 3010 times)
Chaz
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« on: November 16, 2007, 03:49:00 PM »

Hey guys,
  I know some of you have been following the other two threads on this subject but I thought it might be easier to consolidate.
  I also know that this is a bit of a controversial topic for some of us, but I also think it is a very good one. Whether you love the idea or despise it, we all have our reasons why. I think it's VERY GOOD to share all those reasons so people can make an informed decision. THAT is the ONLY kind of decision to make.
  I'm not trying to sway people over to my way of thinking, but rather try to collect other peoples ideas and experiences. There is tons of it out there. I'm already sold on going thru with doing it - that is unless I find something out that would have me think differently - so I'm just looking for info and ideas. I have a few of my own as well!  Grin
  One of the biggest reasons for me doing it, aside from the ecological reason, is that if I can save money when I use my bus, I am more apt to use it. And that is the whole reason for having it. I think there are several people out there that would benefit from this.
  Another kinda neat thing is if some of us who do this to our bus's would like to, we could do "something like" a coop. At least i would be open to help out my other bus nut friends. What I mean by this is that if you are out and about cruising down I-75 between Indy and Cincy and you are running vegy oil, stop by for a little squirt or two!! Smiley Smiley When I get set up and going, I have a friend that owns a KFC just down the street and will give me all I can use. I plan on filtering it and storing a "Tote" full (360 gallons, I think) for myself and others who would benefit from it. (I'm also planning on heating my studio with it. That is a major reason why I'm not doing bio.) Now this doesn't have to be any kind of formal thing, just people helping people. A nice thought, I think.  Smiley
 
  Now on to the method that I am using.
  What people of late have referred to as the "Holy Grail" for this is the Dieselcraft centrifuge (I have no affiliation. Hell, I don't even have one yet!!  Grin) It will filter the oil down to what I understand is .5 micron. That is a VERY good thing. Here is a site to read about it: http://www.xyzworks.com/centrifuge.htm   It sounds like the hot ticket as it needs to be very clean.
  Speaking of "hot" it also NEEDS to be heated to approx. 165* before going into the motor. There is a couple different temps referred to for that, but that is pretty close. I think it can be up to 180*.
  There are also some people trying to say that you can just mix the oil with gasoline or some other sort of combustable fuel, but I'm pretty skeptical about this at this point. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I won't do it. Beware on this one.
  There are a couple other wvo sites that you can glean info from, but I was wanting to see what you guys have done or want to do.

  Well...... I've opened up Pandora's Box once again. Let's see what comes out!!   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

     Getting greased,
         Chaz
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2007, 04:01:42 PM »

having had some bio experience now, I am still not sold on the idea.  One of the guys I was working with has done several commercial marketing type cross country tours running WVO.....with sucess.

however, WVo/SVO/Bio have many other forums.......although acceptable to talk about it here, lengthy threads on the topic are probably more suited to forums specializing on the topic.........not to mention there is probably alot more experience and idea exchange there.
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2007, 04:11:43 PM »

With talking with Detroit Diesel, one of the draw backs it that Veg oil can goop up the engine, especially the 2 strokers with their not so clean running.  Personally, I'll run it in my Mercedes Turbodiesel 300, but am skeptical on running it 100% of the time in a 2 stroker.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2007, 04:15:04 PM »


  <<<Well...... I've opened up Pandora's Box once again. Let's see what comes out!!   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy >>>>

     Getting greased,
         Chaz

The Bright spot here, Chaz is that if you remember the story of Pandora's box, you should remember the last thing to come out of it.



Hope!

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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2007, 04:51:24 PM »

When I get set up and going, I have a friend that owns a KFC just down the street and will give me all I can use. I plan on filtering it and storing a "Tote" full

While I am busless (for now) and the motor home would be difficult to add any tankage to, I am thinking about using wvo in my old Dodge truck.

I am wondering about the quality of wvo from various sources.  I hear that the best comes from potato chip plants and next is Chinese restaurants. It seems that oil from KFC et al would be contaminated with chicken fat and I wonder if that might be an issue.

It's more of a question.  What effect does animal fat have on the oil?

Len
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2007, 07:03:00 AM »

Tekebird,
  I couldn't disagree with you more. This could be a thread that can help allot of people make a decision on whether they would want to run this or not. Again read: "an informed decision". And if they do want to go for it, they can also check other places. If you don't want to read it, please don't. But if you have info, feel free to share.
 
  Tom,
  I have heard this mentioned. I'm not sure of the fix but I understand that the heating of the oil is important to be able to burn it properly. I'd love to hear more definitive info on that. But I think that can be overcome as I have also read of people who don't seem to have an issue with it.

  Len,
   Tankage is a rather "large issue" (get it?!  Grin) but that is another reason why I love the idea of using it in my bus. I do have the room to make it work. I am adding 2-100 gallon tanks and keeping my 165 gallon diesel tank for just diesel. Also, as opposed to doing it in a car, when I fire up the bus, I am going to drive it for awhile. With my cars and trucks, it's usually shorter trips. I assume you already knew that the vehicle has to be started on dino (regular diesel) and brought up to operating temp before you put the wvo to it, and then switched back over to dino to clear the lines before you stop it (unless it's a real short stop). That's why I think a bus or RV is the hot ticket for wvo. If I was to try to run VO in a car or truck, I would probably go with making Bio. I'm a big fan of that also, but they both have their drawbacks! Hell, what doesn't?!?!?! 

  Thank you Dallas. Mine has been running out lately. I kinda feel like I'm scrapping the bottom of the barrel. And the bad thing is, I think I'm right.             I hope I'm wrong.
But thats a whole other subject. I'm still trying to do what I can while I can.  But thank you.

  And as far as KFC and other oils go, you are absolutely right Len. KFC use to use solid shortening which wasn't any good. But they use liquid now. I understand that works fine but you do have the water issue that you mentioned. But it can be de-watered and the centrifuge, from what I understand, does a good job of it.
  I hadn't heard about potato chip oil ( that would be cool!!) but Chinese restaurants do use a better oil and is supposed to be best. Unfortunately, I don't have that option. But in talking with others, they say use what you can get. Hell, I have heard of several stories where people got new vegy oil at Costco on sale for a great price!!!! Just pour it in!!  Grin Grin That just tickles me! Grin
  As far as the animal fat goes, I don't think its a good thing, but can be tolerated. That is another good question to look into further. But I haven't heard any factual specifics about it. When I have brought it up, they say use it. The biggest contaminate issues is more like the water and the particulate.

  My puppy has that "flushed look". Shocked  Better take him out.  Wink

   Chaz









 

 
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2007, 07:50:51 AM »

Chaz,

I hope with enough interest for this topic someone will make it a sticky.

Although I do not plan to use it I enjoy learning about what you guys are doing. At some point in time diesel fuel will be much more expensive and eventually non existant.

Keep up the discussions, they enlighten all of us who want to learn of the process, successes and failures.

Paul
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2007, 07:18:45 PM »

I am also interested in alternate fuel sources.  With almost 15,000 on the rv in eight months and diesel pushing $3.60 here in CT, it could save me a bundle.

Kurt
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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2007, 11:43:27 AM »

Kurt,
  I think you would be a prime candidate as long as you don't mind saving some money but putting forth a little effort.
  Harvesting oil on the road will probably be the most interesting part of the project, but some guys I've talked to say it's not too bad. Chinese Rest. are the best if you can.
  Have you looked at the other thread in the "Help Section"?? It's a good starter for you if you're not real familiar with wvo. It has bio info in it too.
  What kind of info you looking for? What kind of bus you got? Let us get a little of your info and maybe some of the guys already doing this can chime in also.

   Chaz
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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2007, 12:44:11 PM »

Getting oil on the road is not that difficult. I now have over 300 gallons in South Carolina, 110 gallons in Iowa, a place in Iowa that goes through 35 gallons a week that I don't have a container there yet and thousands of gallons I can get at bike rallies like Sturgis. Once I get set up and rolling it will be fun.
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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2007, 01:34:04 PM »

That's the way to do it!!!!!! Plus, I think as things go, it will be possible to have a little bit of a "network" where people of like mind can stop off and get a squirt or two. There are already Co-op's out there that do this. I'm just sure I want to get "formal" about it or not. I just like to help out.
  The Centrifuge way of processing will make it pretty easy on the road. Before the centrifuge, people would have a mess and allot of expense in filters.  If you pull staright from a restaurants barrels, I seen where people will use a leg out of old jeans to filter out the large stuff on the discharge side of the pump. I believe the centrifuge can handle the rest. Just be curtious to the people who allow you to have it. You or someone else down the road may wish to use their oil.
  I'm planning on 2-100 gallon rectangle plastic tanks. They are the same as I have for my fresh and waste water. They fit great crossways in my bus and waste very little space. I was thinking about welding up a steel tank to best utilize my space and be able to use metal fittings, but I understand mild steel isn't real desirable for this. And I don't feel like "pony-ing up" for S.S. or aluminum. Altho it would be waaaaaay easier for me.
  It's just a guess, but I think a person with a little ingenuity and DIY-ing can put together a good system for under 1500.oo. I could be wrong, but that is what I am striving for. It wouldn't take long for a person to recoup that if you use your bus very much at all.

   Chaz
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2007, 06:09:41 AM »

P.S.
  I'm hoping for others to be sharing their experiences here too, but here is a great site that I have been reading.
http://www.xyzworks.com/centrifuge.htm
  This guy has it going on and there are some great links you can go to from here and even check out some videos. VERY informative!!

  Everyday is a school day,
      Chaz
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2007, 06:23:13 AM »

OK, Enough of this self congratulation on how well veggie works.

Lets get some posts on here with the Knitty - Gritty of how to set it up, what kind of fuel line to use, how to accomplish the switch, what kind of tanks work best, how to set up the switch so you can change from WVO to diesel and back on the fly.

I have a 73  baby fishy with a 6V71 that is probably bound for the scrap yard even though it's in pretty good shape and already converted. It's worth about twice as much in scrap as I could get to sell outright. Maybe I can play with that as a WVO test bed at least until Cat makes me haul it off.
How would I go about mounting the tanks under the bus and moving the veggy up to the engine? How do I go about heating it in the hostile under deck configuration?

Lets have facts, figures, pictures, drawings, specifications, alternate methods of connecting and collecting!  Smiley

Dallas
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Chaz
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2007, 05:50:32 PM »

I'm with ya Dallas. I will try to write down some of the stuff I am doing, and want to do, but I am swamped before T-day.

  I haven't heard that you need a special fuel line. I suppose whatever works with diesel will be ok. I know bio swells up rubber for some reason.
  I was told that a steel tank is not reccomended for the oil. I don't know why. Maybe the water that can settle out, but then, there is a little of that problem in diesel too. I would still like to make my own but I can pick up 100 gallon plastic tanks for about 125.oo I would have to support them with 3/4" plywood tho.
  The switching is done with a multiple switch. You can get dino in the vegy, but you don't want to get it the other way around. That will be something I may not skimp on. But I know they can be rather pricey.
  I found another site on "simple centrifuges" (google it) an they make what looks like a pretty nice simple set up. They are developing a "turn key" but the one you can get from them is just the basic centrifuge. You have to set it up. But that would be easy enough. they give you ideas and pix of some that other people have done.
  A "Test vehicle" would be cool Dallas. But I'm not sure it's necessary. There really is a bunch of tried and true setups out there. But the cool thing would be is that you could always take it out and put it in another bus.
   If i go with the plastic tanks, I will mount them on edge like I did my water tanks. They fit really good in my bus. But if I find that a steel tank will work, I can custom build one that will take up less room. I'd like to go 200 gallons.
  You can use the stock fuel pump. (from what I seen)
  Heating the oil in the tank or in the lines is a great idea. I've seen heat tape or lines from the radiator used. But the final heating will be a heated filter unless I find something better. But that is key: ya have to get it to 165* before it goes in the motor. I understand the way the 8V71 works is that it also gets the fuel hot going into the motor. That would definitely help but I understand it isn't enough. A heating coil put in the oil tank is a good idea. It's best to put it so that it is close to the outlet of the tank. (obviously)
  Now as far as the details for collecting and filtering the oil, this site does a great job of explaining and has pix and links to videos:
http://www.xyzworks.com/centrifuge.htm
  Check that out. Now as far as all that a person needs to do with the bus, there is allot of info on the thread in the "Help Section". But I was hoping somebody may have updates or new stuff to add.
  The guy named Chris in that thread was working on doing a bus. He has a company that does this for cars, but had not done a bus yet. I guess he was working on one tho.
  Homegrowndiesel has that wild looking "aero-bus" and runs vegy. I was hoping he might find his way to this thread and maybe have some more light to shed on this.
  Check out that site above. It's pretty cool!
    Chaz


 
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2007, 07:24:15 PM »

When Tom C converts I'll do mine.  I trust his judgement. 

I've been lurking on the wvo forums for a week now, checking archives and such.  It's amazing what some of those guys put in diesel engines and it runs on it.  Cgoodwin from Frybrid was very impressed with the centrifuge Chaz linked above and plans more testing of it before a recommendation to add it to his oil dewatering system. 

The concept works, but as more and more do it, the oil will be harder to come by.  Also, the taxing authorities are beginning to see a potential hemorrage of evaded taxes that will not be overlooked.   California is now requiring back yard grease collectors to be licensed to collect oil from their favorite resturant.  However, the beaurocrats who like to regulate things are in a precarious situation of clamping down on those who are trying to save the planet and save us from OPEC and giving up a few road tax dollars because of what these Yankee engineers are brewing in their back yards, and the grease renderers are the most combative group of all.  There livelihood is being threatened.   

I read of success stories and a lot more guys trying, and a few failures.  There are many more trying that don't post back about success, but also don't admit failure either.   They kind of drop off the boards.  So, what does that mean?  I dunno.  Most of us hate to admit we blew up something, so we may not come back and share it with others.   Some successful grease burners are going underground to keep their "good thing" quiet probably because at some point they have encountered "oil collection" competition and now realize, "I don't want to share this anymore."

I didn't find any bus conversion guys over there, but there may be some lurking.

David
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« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2007, 11:01:40 PM »

I think the best thing we can do as a group is to support the people who are experimenting with VO,WVO,and BIO-D - and G** forbid they have a catastrophic failure - lets then try and put them back on the road  having benefited from their experience - MORE POWER TO THE RISK TAKERS AND EXPERIMENTORS out there - FWIW
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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2007, 05:48:18 AM »

Here is an idea I had, just off the top of my head.

Since a Detroit returns far more fuel than it uses and heats it up in the process, how about using a small tank (3-5 gallon) in a closed loop located close to the engine.  This would be fed from the main tank using a lift pump and float valve. Here is my quick sketch.  It does not include the selector valves or diesel start and purge etc.

FWIW

Len
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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2007, 06:06:35 AM »

David and Niles,
  I feel the same way as you two. I can think of a few relative examples but my typing (actually "Hunt and pecking" ) time is limited right now. But you're right. (in my book)
  Len,
    As far as that diagram goes, well....... I hope somebody who knows can comment on it. I'm not sure I know what you are doing. Sorry! But if it's to utilize the already heated oil, I get where you are coming from. I had planned to just drop the return oil back in the tank where the oil comes out. That would help warm the oil in the tank, especially where it's coming out.
  I "think" a person has to use a heating element (probably a heated filter or such) just before the motor to make sure it's up to temp from the very get-go. I've read where the improper heating is a major cause of problems. But utilizing the heat you have already - to me - seems like a good idea.

  Busy day,
     Chaz
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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2007, 06:14:15 AM »

hey guys, as you know, i am not the foremost diesel expert, but bio-diesel seems to me to not be in the same heat-it-up-first catagory as the vo and wvo.  there is a place about 30 mi away that i get there bio everytime i'm going that direction. 
i just pump it in the same tank as the flying j fuel.  i've had no problems that i have seen, and it does seem to me that the engine was actually higher horses and less fuel on my trip!  the bio i was using was supposed to be from a farmer's coop that mixed about 5% into the regular.  they said they varied the mix up to 10% to try to keep the price close to the same or less than regular.

i'm interested in using bio or wvo also, to save a few bucks on the road.
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« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2007, 08:50:15 AM »

Below is part of an article taken from BusandCoach.com (UK bus industry site), which might be of interest.

Jeremy

For six months, Stagecoach will be running eight buses on a Kilmarnock local service on 100 per cent biodiesel, manufactured from used cooking oil and other sustainable sources – a move which answers criticisms that the creation of bio-fuels involves the destruction of natural habitats and sees potential food sources being used to fuel vehicles. Sometimes, of course, it does – hence National Express’s decision earlier this year to back away from biodiesel – but Stagecoach is working with a Scottish-based bioenergy specialist, Argent Energy, which creates fuel from waste food industry products.

Stagecoach currently uses a blend of 5 per cent biodiesel in over 4,300 buses, covering around 60 per cent of its UK fleet. But this is claimed by Stagecoach as the first UK trial of 100 per cent biodiesel by a bus operator.

The eight buses in Kilmarnock – Euro 2 specification MANs – now have two fuel tanks, one of which holds 40 litres of diesel, necessary to start the engine, while the other holds 148 litres of biodiesel. The engine runs on diesel for 10 minutes when it is first started up in the morning, then switches automatically to biodiesel. After six months the performance of the trial vehicles will be assessed, both in terms of the economics of the operation and in relation to engine wear. One engine will be stripped down to see if the use of 100 per cent biodiesel has had any adverse effects.

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« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2007, 09:13:53 AM »

Great info!! Thanx Jeremy!
  That sounds like a good test to see what/if there is some/any adverse effects of Bio. If there is, it's great to know in this manner as opposed to us bearing the burden. And with the general consumer, it's not usually a good "test". PLUS, if there should happen to be problems, they can be addressed just as when they took lead out of regular.
  Manasst,
   Stick around. HOpefully we will ALL be more enlightened by the end of this.
 
 I can't say from experience, and anyone can make claims, but I understand from some of my reading that the engine actually "smooths out" a little bit on VO. That may be also true of Bio too.  I have also read that there is an increase in power and I have read there is a decrease in power. Both claims say that it was "only slightly". Probably a moot issue. Again, there needs to be a "formal test" much like the one Jeremy spoke of.

Times are a changin,
      Chaz

   Lunch is over, back to work!  Wink
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« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2007, 07:29:01 PM »

Chaz

As you know I ran WVO for a tad over two years and WVO will soften any thing made of rubber and some cheap plastics. I spent a bit over 2500.00 in setups on WVO and never could get over the thickening of the WVO in colder weather anything around 47 degrees and less  and when warm it looked as clean and clear as brand new oil.

For Lens question of chicken fat or any animal fats that is what causes the thickening
of the oil the only thing that removes animal fats is the bio-diesel making of using Lye to break it down along with the menthenol.

I have ran approximately 3500 gallons of bio-diesel mixed with 5% reg diesel and find the use is about the same temperture wise as reg diesel.

My cost have risen from 65 cents per gallon to about now 85 cents per gallon for making the bio-diesel.

My processor which I just sold to a gentlemen in Texas was based on The  Appleseed processor.

I put on hold making a processor to put in bus as I will be installing a 250 gal caged plastic tank in a bay as my bio-now will be supplied by a company i'm doing consultant work for the construction of a new plant here in AZ.

Just heard Indio CA also getting a new plant. So not to discourage you in your use of WVO but do it your way and keep up on the latest and bests way  but don't be taken in by the snake medicine you read all the time.

The Eastern Washington farmer group I was with now has a little over 5,000 vehicles running a straight bio-diesel and produced a bit over 15,000,000 gallons of bio diesel last year. No you can't buy it anywhere it's a closed group we have came a long ways with the bio-diesel over the last ten years.

LarryH
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« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2007, 09:11:02 PM »

Well Im all open to new ideas..I run 4 dually fords here in florida and with fuel over $3.50 a gallon I agree something has got to give..You figure each truck fuels up every other day with $120 of fuel..So you figure $360 a week in fuel x 4 truck and hell Im going in the poor house..Even tho the real estate market has dropped alot Im still making a decent living but If I can run my truck on WVO or Bio Im all ears..When I first heard about the idea I was against it but the more I shut up and listen the more Im interested..Plus I bought the old 1957 Golden Eagle last week and it holds like 130+ gallons of fuel and I filled it up before we headed home..I almost passed out when I put $450 in it and didnt fill it up..It was changed over from a 8v71 to a big cam 400 in 2005 and the pump is turned up So she drinks the fuel..So anyone thats done the conversion keep us informed..With enough test and enough success I will convert for my wallets sake
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« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2007, 05:17:43 PM »

Chaz
Keep Up The Good Work

Bill
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« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2007, 08:04:08 AM »

That bluebird that chris converted seemed to work out fine. Looks like he has the basic parts for a system if he is will ing to sell them. I know he is a member of this board.  I know a welder who can do aluminum welding and want to have him build a tank for me. I want to put the heated pick up in the tank and have the heated lines to the engine and fuel filter. Chris has a cumputer controlled system but could done manually too. Jerry
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1988 MCI 102A3 8V92TA 740
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« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2007, 08:53:52 AM »

Hey Bill,
  Can I bug you sometime?? I'd just like to chat again about getting this done. I had emailed Chris (the guy who converts cars from the other thread we had going) but haven't heard back.
 
  Jerry,
  Which Chris are you talking about? Is it the guy from the thread in the Help section? I'd like to chat with him again. He was very knowledgable and a good dude. I just don't want to bother him if he's not up to it or was burnt out with posting here. (I feel his frustration)

  Duelly Dude,
   Hang around or check out some of the other sites I posted for more info. I'm not sure what you use your trucks for, but making your own bio may be a better idea. At least if I was going to do a car or truck, I would go that route. There are pros and cons either way, but in smaller vehicles where you do shorter trips, etc., it seems to me to be a little more viable. Bus's just seem to be the perfect candidate for VO because of the long trip and more storage aspect. (different impressions may vary  Wink )

  Thanx Larry,
  Yeah, the heating is an issue. But hopefully not insurmountable. I will need to figure out what rubbers/plastics I need to replace and use. Hopefully I can post a run down.
  Congrats on the bio work!!! That's very cool. Getting all you want would be AWESOME!!!!! I'd drive my bus up to pick up a pizza!!!!!!  Grin (I'm already rather well known around here for various things, that would REALLY get'em talkin!!! LOL  Grin)

  Thanx guys,
       Chaz
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"Imagination is more important than knowledge". Albert Einstein
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« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2007, 11:56:14 AM »

Hey Chaz

That's not bugging me, Just don't call on friday or saturday after 5 pm as we are hands on with our RnR GRILL n BAR project. I Lost your # in my old phone. My cell # is 302-745-1192.

Niles, thanks for the props. Wink

Glad to see a continuing thread here, I lurk at alot of forums, and enjoy sharing with my fellow bio-busnuts here. Smiley

I have alot of filtered WVO available, 5 restaurants worth in Southern Delaware, if anyone needs some. I intend to use all of it eventually but will share.

Ok Dallas

Nuts Bolts Opinions,
Lets start at the tank, I have stored WVO in steel, plastic, aluminum and SS and not had any problems.

I have used my copper tube in the heater hose set up for 5 years now with good results.(I plan on using pex on the next one) Some people say copper tube is to be avoided but I have not had any problems.
I have used all the wrong rubber hoses for 5 years to see the results, the hoses are soft and are shedding parts of rubber. ( those pieces showed up in the filter, Thanks Ron) The new fuel injection hoses, synthetic do not have problems, only Natural rubber.
 
You need a heated fuel filter.

180 degree oil does not compromise the cooling effects of the fuel in the injectors.

Hot oil is needed to ensure complete proper spray pattern and combustion, therefore not building up engine ruining deposits.

I have used a pickup truck 6 way valve to switch between diesel & WVO for years now. Ron will be testing shortly to see if the volume is enough for his 8-92

I advocate a coolant heated heat exchanger to heat the Wvo just before the engine to ensure proper heat & atomization.

Enough for now I have to get to work.

Bill




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« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2007, 06:45:17 PM »

Chaz, why don't you just go to his website and forum and contact him. Jerry
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1988 MCI 102A3 8V92TA 740
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