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Author Topic: What does it mean when they say " For Leagle reasons, we cannot give miles  (Read 2293 times)
superpickle
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« on: December 06, 2007, 01:07:36 PM »

on the engine.. What kind of Leagle stuff prevents them from telling yo the Milege on a Bus.. Huh Huh
Whats Leagle about That Huh Huh Huh

seems Fishy to me...

Paul...
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2007, 01:13:42 PM »

I can only imagine that in most states vehicles over a certain age do not require mileage disclosure.  Kinda like my dentist telling me the federal government requires that they collect certain personal data...... naw!  What the feds say is that if you collect such information you must disclose the patients right to decline and outline security precautions for the info.  Now that's LEGAL!
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2007, 01:24:12 PM »

Many buses are likely to have gone around the clock more than once -- or have had several odometers fitted during their life. Makes it impossible to give an accurate figure so to give no figure is safest.

Instead of asking "how many miles has it done", ask them "what is the current odometer reading".  The first question is impossible to answer but the second one is just the same as asking the VIN
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 01:30:49 PM by tonylee » Logged

tekebird
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2007, 01:30:58 PM »

It is a Used car Sales Lot BS statement used when they DO NOT want to disclose mileage for reasons directly related to the sale.

Any bus coming from an actual bus compnany will have maint records available.

IMHO any bus dealer who buys a bus at auction where the bus is coming from a bus  comany should request the maint records and disclose this info.

with that said, there are some instances where it may actually be unknown.

1 multiple owners since Engine rebuild and PO's did not keep records of the owners before them.  This is most common with Churches......keep in mind God takes care of not only the general maint but major engine work as well.  It also rears it's head in the Conversion coach market where the owner honestly does not know.

My previously owned 04 we had approx mileage for the coach.....mainly due to the second owner being out of business before we got it.......we did have documentaion on mileage from the first owner.  2nd owner mileage was approximated based on a figured average per year.

Example:  At the time NJT dumped all their MC-9's maint records were available from NJT.  Not sure if ABC ( who bought most of them shared with the new buyers.

             DART (Dallas) auctioned off a bunch A3 MCI's...not sure if it was publicised...but those recored were available from DART at the time.

There have been several coaches I would have loved to jump on....but when asked about Mileage, I was told it was unknown........even though I know where the coach came from and records were likely available ( If I called and asked for them from the company)...but it put such a sour taste in my mouth I turned away.

If the seller is concerned about someone coming after them that should be covered in the sales contract.  Unless of course, the seller actually knows and thinks it reduces the salability of the coach. ( which is likely the case)
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tekebird
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2007, 01:33:38 PM »

generally a reputable and knowledgable Shop will reset the odometer at an Engine rebuild or replacement.  I have yet to see a bus that had a odo that did not go to 999,999.9



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gus
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2007, 06:56:37 PM »

There are numerous reasons a bus odometer does not accurate show the actual mileage and this statement keeps the seller from being liable if the odometer is not correct.

I don't blame any seller if he is not the original owner, there is no way he can know for sure without complete records which are worth the paper they're printed on!

If I were selling I would say "Actual mileage unknown".

Mileage on an old bus is not the key anyway, condition is.
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Hartley
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2007, 07:15:54 PM »

If someone is goofy or doofy enough to claim a certain mileage on a vehicle that has truly unkown or actual recorded mileage and the buyer decides to sue for misrepresentation that is why someone would say that.

It is illegal to misrepresent mileage and will hold up in court, Even if it's a verbal misrepresentation.

A person may say, Mileage Unknown or mileage exceeds mechanical limits statement is acceptable. They would not gaurantee mileage properly even if fairly accurate records were kept.

Remember this is the land of "Litigate" before you think.....A load of crap but true...

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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2007, 07:34:45 PM »

I think thats XXXXXXXX,  [come on Doug, you know the drill] nick-

I think it is funny that low mile or coaches with rebuilt engines are regularly sold with mileages "represented" while the same dealer with a bus from the same company has one that Mileage is unknown. 

That is a pretty good sign the seller does not want to tell you because it is high miles or representtive of a run out engine.

True we are a very litigous society......and not disclosing mileage is in no way a legal Cloak to being sued.

that said even a fresh factory engine can grenade shortly into it's life.

I just wish that bus sellers that have access to records would use them and offer them to the owners.  Not is just  being a typical shaddy used car dealer.


Example, My MC-8 was purchased new by Anhauser Busch and sent direct from Pembina to Colubus for it's interior........PO stated 165k or so from rebuild.

Upon delivery ( PO delivered the bus on his dime prior to payment.....good sign it is in good shape) we were going through the rather disorganized records.......TADA!  165k from new. 

Lots of folks thing a RED DD is a Telltale of a DD reliabuilt rebuild.... which is why the seller represented it as such (by odometer) however MCI mated new DD's (red) to all autos for years.



« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 08:02:01 PM by Nick Badame Refrig. Co. » Logged
Hartley
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2007, 08:16:31 PM »

I agree, There should have been a system of keeping a permanent odometer record on every vehicle. However I cannot defend or derate anyone for not having accurate information and history.

On buses, They were built and are built for a specific lifetime overall which includes changing out just about everything mechanical or electronic during the life of the unit in commercial operation.

Stuff fails sooner or later and things like speedometers get replaced for many reasons including when engines are replaced. Hubometers get replaced and are subject to damage or loss in the tire shops.

Also remember that most of the buses we convert were never intended to become the property of private citizens so any assumed mileage is just that and not really something that can be depended on.

Some coaches are converted new and those would probably be fairly accurate.

I saw an old mechanical monitor system once on an old greyhound that kept track of engine hours and miles travelled on a multi-pointer dial. I think it kept up to 10k hours and 3 million miles on the dials. It was hidden up in an equipment bay and had a speedo cable and air fitting. It started recording when the air pressure was up.
Never saw any more...

Records are only as good as the people keeping them. I figure that anything relatively close to the actual mileage would be acceptable to most people.

The bottom line is: Who Cares!!... We generally don't care about miles if everything is in reasonably good mechanical condition or recent documentation of repairs are provided.

Most of us also could care less on some of these monsters. We are going to fix stuff anyway and even if purported mileage information is available.

SP - Why do you start these things?
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« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2007, 09:42:01 PM »

The reasons that I place that in my ads and tell people the same is for the following reasons: I did not drive the bus and therefore can not attest to the milage. I did not keep the records and as such can not prove one way or another the milage. And yes, you can say what you want in a bill of sale, such as "sold as is where is" and a few bad people will still sue you.

Here is one of many true stories to share:  A major bus dealer sells a bus and provides the maintance records to the new buyer. The dealer did not do the maintance, just provide the records that were given them. The bus gets in an accident, driver says brakes failed.  The person sues the bus operator, the major bus dealer who sold the bus and the previse owner, because records said the brakes were replaced 2 years earlier. The major bus dealer paid 1 million to be done with the case. Were they at fault? It was cheaper to pay the million than to defend the case, they have the deep pockets. If the records are not provided, it is hard to claim damages for something that no one claims to have done.

Sure you can think someone is hiding something, but reality is they are trying to limit liability. After a bus is 10 to 12 years old 90 percent of them have over a million miles on them. All engines transmission etc have been replaced at least once.  The bus should make it another 2 million miles, if it is not from the rust belt. The key is to see what the condition is. Is the body straight, is the interior nice, does it seem tight. If so, the bus was proablily well care for. You will be taking out the seats, so you do not care, but look at them. If there are nice... the operator cared about the bus.

I'm being sue by someone back east. he purchase a bus, drove it for 2 years without a problem. He got the maintenance records from the previous owner which said the bus had 1.1 million miles on it... he said that if he knew that he would not have purchased the bus... I did not know that, he got the records after he purchased the bus. Bottom line, I will pay out to an attorney etc. even though the bus was sold as is where is... and he still has not had a problem with the bus?

I'm sorry that I turn people off because I state that I do not provide records for legal reasons... I really do not know what to do. I can't seem to win either way because people do not want to be responable for there purchase. The buses I sell are always sold for less than the dealers and below retail. They are all used. Should I claim to know the mileage?  But that does not matter, people will still sue you. so you try to cover yourself. But it does not work all the time, but the reason for no records is not that I do not want the buyer to know, but because I do not want to be sued. Every buyer says "Oh no, I would not do that" until they find a reason not to be happy.

I like buses, I know them pretty well and try to represent them fairly. I try to do what is right if there is a problem. But when some buys a bus for $10,000 and sues you for $15,000 what are you to do? I don't get it.

Sorry, I got caught up... Please, buy a bus knowing that something will break, sooner or later, because it will. And the seller and operator proabilty does not know  ahead of time. A major problem yes, as would anyone when they test drive a bus. Is the engine or trans sick? You can often tell. And that if the bus is 10 years or older, it's an older bus. It will break at some time. Buy a bus, be happy with it and do not blame the seller. By doing that, you will have more fun and better luck going forward. Is there anyone out there that is happy with a bus they purchased from me? Many are and they are the quite happy ones.
Oh, buy the way I have a nice clean MCI 102C3 for sale.... do not know the milage, sorry
Mike
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2007, 10:48:00 PM »

Mike,

Yours is a special problem.  I doubt any can fully appreciate your position that isn't in a similar situation.  The lawsuit thing is like a hammer over your head. It has to give you heartburn and cost you sleep.  I certainly don't envy you that aspect of your business.

My understanding, at least in the theory of law, is that you can give up your right to sue with proper disclaimers.  The only person that cannot do that is a "minor child".  Hurt one of those and they can come after you forever regardless of what they or anyone else signed.  But a grownup "should" be able to sign away that right for himself and an attorney "should" be able to assemble that disclaimer.  Please read that as my being encouraging and not disputing you.

I have almost no time at present but after the first of the year i will try to research this.  No guarantees on that though....as is, where is, and all my good intension.

John

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« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2007, 03:34:14 PM »

I for do not disagree with or dispute Mikes practice of not disclosing mileage. In today world you have to do everything to protect yourself due to the one person who has nothing better to do than sue because they feel like it. Just providing records can cause you to be liable as Mike said. In the marine world when my father was with Chris Craft they were sued because a guy towing a Chris Craft from a deck cleat had his wife killed when the cleat pulled out and sling shot forward and hit her in the head. while this is certainly tragic the facts are that the cleat was not installed by Chris Craft nor a dealer but by a previous owner of the boat. not to mention that a cleat is not meant to be used to tow but since Chris Craft had money and the previous owner didnt they got sued and had to pay out millions in the settlement. is that fair and reasonable? NO. but that is not what you deal in with a business. If I wasnt personally present during the life of the vehicle I would not state mileage either. and anyone who changes out an odometer or resets one due to an engine rebuild is in violation of federal law if it is not disclosed as mileage inacurate on the paperwork. Mileage relates to the vehicle not the engine or odometer reading. just my $.02.
Steve
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« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2007, 05:56:31 PM »

Hey Mike, thanks for sharing your point of view with the rest of us. business people are not in a very good position when it come to our rights and those of the "buyer" maybe just maybe when a buyer signs an agreement/bill of sale that says as is no warranty it means just what it says and the purchaser will be upstanding after the fact when his priest,wife,sister,uncle,fwb,charter boat captian etc tries to change his mind and he has buyers remorse they will think twice BEFORE BUYING !!!!

THANKS AGAIN FOR SHARING AND

DRIVER MOVE THAT BUS !!!!

CHRIS 
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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2007, 06:19:03 PM »

Hello.

Different jurisdictions have regulations governing these matters for vehicle sales people and companies.

To violate what the licencing jurisdiction demands will put a business out of business!

Mileage claims are a funny business when you are talking in excess of 6 figures, and have multiple owners and no reliable recording device on the vehicle.

The newer stuff will expose the truth through the engine computer.

Also, once a coach decends into the second or third tier companies...well, the sky is not high enough to be called a limit to the stories and inuendo that is a way of life at that level.

Unless you buy a coach at the price point of coming from a first tier/original owner coach company, all bets are off on the truthfulness of the info available on a used coach.

These days, first tier coaches are 10- 12 years old and a good bit above the $50 000 mark.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2007, 07:02:16 AM »

Having an Attorney as a roomate who works in the Auto industry, she tells me that  no matter what you do you can get sued for whatever made up reason someone can get anattorney to argue.  Nature of  Litagous society.

This is evidenced by Mike getting sued 2 years after a sale for a bus he did not provide records for.

Quite possible this guy would have not bought the bus knowing the mileage, with that said he is a Fing idiot becasue almost any used bus over 10 years old will be in excess of 1 million miles.

This guy that is suing Mike WILL win.....becuse he will have at least an affidavit from the PO stating that The mileage was disclosed to Mike, even just in conversation.  Judges and especially Juries   do not like even the idea of Lying by ommision



AGAIN: Disclaimer Disclaimer Disclaimer. 

State: Mileage is reported and may not be acurate

State: Maintainance records that are provided may not be accurate or complete.

you can also require as a condition of sale that the buyer pay to have the unit inspected at an idependant shop of thier choosing......That is the biggest leagal out.

Buy a hot coffee ant macdonnalds and spill it on your lap.......it's mac Donalds fault...even though it is HOT coffee, Labeled as such

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