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Author Topic: Detroit air box drains....  (Read 5901 times)
NCbob
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« on: May 29, 2006, 05:46:21 PM »

For all the years I was shipmates with DD's, and it runs the gammut from the 6-71's to the 12V71T's  it wasn't much of a problem with the "slobbering" of the air box drains for two reasons.  First, when we were ready to leave the dock, the engines were only started AFTER the shore cords, hoses and such were pulled in and stored.  Once all the was done, we started engines, threw off the lines and moved out.  No air system to wait for build up, etc.  And under the engines were either copper of stainless pans which were built into the vessel to collect any mess the engines put out.

Personally, I salvaged small tin cans (peas, corn and such) from the Galley and put bronze wool in them and hung 'em from a piece of wire from the 90 degree elbow below each air box drain.  I'd clean them often with diesel fuel and dispose of the residue.

But now, my beastie is 'slobbering' all over the clean concrete floor of my 'bus barn' while I'm trying to be patient while the air comes up.  Have to admit that I haven't yet bought a strong enough compressor to 'air up' before starting the main.....but it's  starting to p----  me off! 

I suppose that I could go back to the tin cans and bronze wool but I haven't the experience with going down the road with tin cans swinging about at 70mph.

AirSep (Walker) builds some toys to eliminate this problem..but there has to be a better way around it.

Anyone solved this little problem yet?

NCbob
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NJT5047
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« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2006, 05:56:30 PM »

Yep. Resolution is at hand. Make a "catch can" and you'll resolve your problem. I'll post a pix of a catch can. You may be able to buy one from Nimco or Sam Caylor. All NJTs had them. Probably anyone parting out "clean air"  2 stroke powered coaches have them all over.
All it consists of is a can with fittings on both upper ends that the airbox drains attach too. The center drain is a standpipe thing that will allow overflow if the can fills up. There's a small screen over the standpipe.  Othwise, if you drain it occasionally, it'll keep the bus relatively clean...if the road draft tubes aren't blowing oil. Airbox drains are nasty little things.
There may be other ideas, but here's solution.
Best, JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
Dallas
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« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2006, 06:30:15 PM »

Some people have made air box drain catchments from a piece of 3" PVC pipe with holes drilled in it to hold the spitter tubes. Put plugs on both ends, drill and tap a hole it the bottom to put a plug for a drain. on the top put in an air vent.
Or, the KISS method, take a 1 gallon oil jug and zip tie it to the engine cradle, put the spitter tube in it. Do this for both tubes. When the bottle gets nasty, throw it away and replace with a new one.

Or the really KISS method.... Swap it out for an MBE 4000!

http://www.detroitdiesel.com/products/Mercedes-Benz/MBE_4000/index.asp

Dallas

« Last Edit: May 29, 2006, 06:42:11 PM by Dallas » Logged
Jerry Liebler
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« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2006, 06:37:21 PM »

Detroit Diesel offers a kit that routes the air box drains through check valves into the crankcase.  The kit only works on upright engines so I had to roll my own as others with GM busses have done.  My installation is documented in the files section of the Yahoo group 'GMbusnuts'.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
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DrDave
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« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2006, 07:44:12 PM »

Personally I would not route the gunk and garbage that comes out the air boxes back into
a working engine. Just not a real good idea.

If it was a good idea then Detroit would have made the drains go back to the oil sump when they
designed the engines. Gee for some reason they designed the drain (capture) cannister.

If you have that much oil coming out of the airbox, you may have a problem as they are
usually fairly clean with only a few drops.

I had a 6V92 that didn't slobber oil out the drains, It pumped it out by the gallon. Found out later
just why.. The blower drive lost an oil seal then exploded when the rotors locked from dry bearings.
Required replacing the whole engine by that time too.... The seal had been leaking for about a year or more.
and I didn't realize a problem was happening until it blew up going down the highway.

Oil waste can come from the turbo and the roots blower and even the pistons as they pass
the air intake ports (blowby), along with fine dust and metal shavings that are shed during wear.

It gets trapped in the oil residue and flushed out the airbox drains.

DON'T PANIC
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TomC
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« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2006, 08:42:40 PM »

Dallas- the MBE theory would be fine and good so long as you're looking for one that is a take out.  The MBE 4000 is so popular that Freightliner has had all engine production quotas filled for two months for the rest of the year!  Personally, I like the engine-has 6-cylinder heads, cam operated unit fuel injection for up to 32,000psi tip pressure, turbo and exhaust brake that produces over 500hp of braking, and it just plainly drives well with gobs of really low end torque down around 1,100 rpm.  Everyone loves the mileage-we had one fleet change from C12's to the MBE4000 and just in the fuel savings will pay for the trucks in 7 years!  Also, I've been wanting to see one apart, but up and beyond a cylinder head or two taken off, haven't seen one taken apart yet.  Can't say that about the Series 60.  And the mechanics bluntly say that the MBE4000 just doesn't require the maintenance that the Series 60 do.  I would love to put one in my bus since it weighs about 250lb less (or the same as a Series 50) than my 8V-71N, and it would put out almost twice the torque (1,550 vs 800). But, we can all wish.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Dallas
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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2006, 12:09:51 AM »

Tom,
You may get your wish sooner than you think!
The MBE will replace the series 60 as the engine of choice in the class 8 market as of 2010. Diamler - Benz will stop offering the 60 at that time because they don't want to have 2 engine platforms on the market tosupport.
MBE's have been in Europe, the Middle East and Africa for years and have a significantly better maintenance history and fuel mileage than the 60.

The above came from a broshure I got at a Detroit Dealer a few months back.

As we get more of these engines, more will end up junk yards in wrecks.

I want one! I want one! I want one!

Dallas
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DrivingMissLazy
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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2006, 06:02:08 AM »

Detroit Diesel offers a kit that routes the air box drains through check valves into the crankcase. The kit only works on upright engines so I had to roll my own as others with GM busses have done. My installation is documented in the files section of the Yahoo group 'GMbusnuts'.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120

Someone posted months ago on one of the boards that DD had taken that particular kit off the market and was offering another kit that just collected the waste oil in a container. FWIW
Richard
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Dallas
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« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2006, 06:34:08 AM »

Here are some of the Special Service Bulletins relating to Air Box Drains from Detroit diesel

www.detroitdiesel.com/public/sp/spnav.asp

Look for:
18SP289
18SP314
18SP315
18SP371

Among others.

Dallas
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NCbob
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« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2006, 06:20:09 PM »

Dallas, I looked at each and every one of those this morning and they all seem to apply to engines with slanted oil pans or engines like the old 71 slant series.  You don't really ever think that DD would ever offer anything anyone really wanted to know and would put it in a manner which might, by the wildest strech of the imagination, be reasonably attainable let alone understood?

Now, if you think that's confusing...try reading some Cummins information sometime!  Grin

NCbob
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Dallas
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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2006, 06:29:23 PM »

Bob,
Cummins? Cat? Mack?
I think they all have professionals that do nothing but make up instructions for things that no one will ever use in an application that has never exsisted to do a job that could be done by 3 parapalegic monkeys with hiccups.

I only picked those examples out of the lineup because they were handy. I would think that they have other drain box systems in there too.

Dallas
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NCbob
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« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2006, 07:38:54 PM »

Dallas, I can remember (we might be getting off topic here) years ago I was called to Anderson Memorial Hospital in Anderson, SC to solve a problem with 3-750 KW generator sets, 5 automatic transfer switches and a paralleling system which wouldn't transfer back to the utility....bumpless.  That means that when the power returned the Emergency power system (3 generators in parallel) wouldn't parallel with the Utility...remain connected and then the generators would drop off line.

It took me, another Tech and a whole trailer load of inductive load banks 3 days to find that a twisted pair of 16 guage wires had been installed in a conduit with generator sensing leads...and it should have been isolated off by itself.

During that 3 days I was on the telephone with the best Engineers the factory had...and their best Field Techs and everyone but Jesus!

These Factory Geniuses are paid for what they're supposed to know.  Is that the old Peter Principle?

NCbob
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Dallas
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2006, 12:54:43 AM »

Dallas, I can remember (we might be getting off topic here) years ago I was called to Anderson Memorial Hospital in Anderson, SC to solve a problem with 3-750 KW generator sets, 5 automatic transfer switches and a paralleling system which wouldn't transfer back to the utility....bumpless.  That means that when the power returned the Emergency power system (3 generators in parallel) wouldn't parallel with the Utility...remain connected and then the generators would drop off line.

It took me, another Tech and a whole trailer load of inductive load banks 3 days to find that a twisted pair of 16 guage wires had been installed in a conduit with generator sensing leads...and it should have been isolated off by itself.

During that 3 days I was on the telephone with the best Engineers the factory had...and their best Field Techs and everyone but Jesus!

These Factory Geniuses are paid for what they're supposed to know.  Is that the old Peter Principle?

NCbob

Bob,
I use to work for an electric company in Indiana as the IT Admin and that meant that I was also on call for problems that arose in the middle of the night.
A typical night would go like this:
Go to bed about23.30
Sleep until 02.30
Phone rings,
I answer with a lilt in my voice, "MMMurrph? Hunh?"
Caller: The computer won't come on.
Me: Push the button
Caller: I did, it still won't
Me: Which button did you push?
Caller: The one on the Monitor.
Me: Push the one on the computer
Caller: I did, it didn't come on.
Me: Is the computer plugged in?
Caller: Yep.
Me: To what?
Caller: To the UPS
Me: Wht's the UPS plugged into?
Caller: The Surge suppressor
Me: What's the Surge Supressor plugged into?
Caller: The extension cord.
Me: What's the extension cord plugged into?
Caller: The , unh........... The UPS
Me: (with not too many bad words under my breath), speak sanely and politely, Plug the cord into the wall.
Caller: OH! Really? Wow, that worked! Thanks!!!
Me: MMmmmmmmrrrmph!

Time: 04:00

This was an actual call from one of our bright eyed engineers!

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DrivingMissLazy
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2006, 08:03:59 AM »

Dallas, I can remember (we might be getting off topic here) years ago I was called to Anderson Memorial Hospital in Anderson, SC to solve a problem with 3-750 KW generator sets, 5 automatic transfer switches and a paralleling system which wouldn't transfer back to the utility....bumpless. That means that when the power returned the Emergency power system (3 generators in parallel) wouldn't parallel with the Utility...remain connected and then the generators would drop off line.

It took me, another Tech and a whole trailer load of inductive load banks 3 days to find that a twisted pair of 16 guage wires had been installed in a conduit with generator sensing leads...and it should have been isolated off by itself.

During that 3 days I was on the telephone with the best Engineers the factory had...and their best Field Techs and everyone but Jesus!

These Factory Geniuses are paid for what they're supposed to know. Is that the old Peter Principle?

NCbob

Bob, to give the factory engineers and techs some credit, they always assume (and thats bad)  that the installation has been done properly. It would be very difficult for a factory guy to diagnose something like that. What would make it even worse would be that if the system had worked for some period of time and then started messing up.
Richard
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Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a good Reisling in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming:  WOO HOO, what a ride
Dallas
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« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2006, 08:40:21 AM »

Dallas, I can remember (we might be getting off topic here) years ago I was called to Anderson Memorial Hospital in Anderson, SC to solve a problem with 3-750 KW generator sets, 5 automatic transfer switches and a paralleling system which wouldn't transfer back to the utility....bumpless.  That means that when the power returned the Emergency power system (3 generators in parallel) wouldn't parallel with the Utility...remain connected and then the generators would drop off line.

It took me, another Tech and a whole trailer load of inductive load banks 3 days to find that a twisted pair of 16 guage wires had been installed in a conduit with generator sensing leads...and it should have been isolated off by itself.

During that 3 days I was on the telephone with the best Engineers the factory had...and their best Field Techs and everyone but Jesus!

These Factory Geniuses are paid for what they're supposed to know.  Is that the old Peter Principle?

NCbob

Bob, to give the factory engineers and techs some credit, they always assume (and thats bad)  that the installation has been done properly. It would be very difficult for a factory guy to diagnose something like that. What would make it even worse would be that if the system had worked for some period of time and then started messing up.
Richard

Richard, giving Morton Thiokol their due, The Shuttle Challenger worked 4 times and then blew up 93 seconds after liftoff on the 5th trip.
Looking at the design in retrospect, even a decent shade tree mechanic could see how it would fail. How did the PHD's and MS's and BS's miss it?
When I worked for the Electric company, no one listened to the linemen and techs until something went wrong. We had two guys killed because of an engineers oopsy. Engineers always had to sign off on the work done, after a personal inspection. One of those engineers is now a senoir consultant with a major electrical construction contractor.
Who paid? Those guys families.

Sorry, That one kind of tripped my breakers. Engineers as far as I'm concerned, can never be good at what they do without having spent a few years as a tech, the same as a doctor has to be an intern and then a resident.

Thanks for letting me rant. And Rave. and make a fool of myself.

Dallas
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