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Author Topic: Tour Bus rollover in So. Utah  (Read 4109 times)
Paladin
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« on: January 06, 2008, 09:08:06 PM »

I just heard that a bus rolled down in southern Utah but didn't catch how, it's still apparently new news.
Anyone know how it happened? I wonder if it was weather related?
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2008, 09:17:49 PM »

at least 3 dead.


http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2444146
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2008, 09:21:42 PM »

80 passenger Greyhound...is there such a thing?
Jack
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2008, 09:49:24 PM »

Gee, I went to KSL as well as KUTV and couldn't find anything, go figure.

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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2008, 09:50:13 PM »


80 passenger Greyhound...is there such a thing?



Jack -

No such animal.  'Hound has either 43, 47, or 55 passenger buses, depending on the model.

Good example of a reporter not doing their homework in a rush to get the story on the air.

I sent the station this same information, hopefully they'll correct it "as more details come in."

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Cry
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2008, 09:54:32 PM »

Sounds a few folks went in and laid down among the wreckage to get in on the lawsuit!  Wink


Actually, I seem to remember an accident, maybe Amtrak(?) where a bunch of people wandered around among the wreckage and pretended to be injured. It was only when they investigators got suspicious and checked the sheets that they found so many 'new' people on board after the accident. Crass and tacky!
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2008, 05:28:08 AM »

AP is reporting 7 dead. Still saying 80 on board.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gGwS0o5WjaByGqCBTmnLSSuTPXdgD8U114380
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_7899965
http://www.kutv.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=91bec78b-5fe9-44c7-b4ef-b57c2845e7be

CNN is saying at least 50

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/07/utah.bus.crash/



« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 05:36:44 AM by gumpy » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2008, 05:58:18 AM »



  If you go to the link about the crash it says now the death total is now up to 8. Lets pray for the rest.


  Steve 5B
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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2008, 07:46:32 AM »

There was an incident several years ago with a MARTA transit bus here in Atlanta that was struck by a truck while stopped.  At the time (don't know if they still do), MARTA would just payout $3K to anyone who was on a MARTA bus in any incident, whether they were injured or not.  So, sure enough, a couple dozen people filed claims against the accident.  The funny part was, the news story about the accident neglected to mention that the bus was out-of-service at the time of the accident.  So they got all of the people to sign affidavits for their claims and then the DA filed fraud charges against all of them.
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2008, 08:38:22 AM »

Photos here:

http://www.kutv.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=91bec78b-5fe9-44c7-b4ef-b57c2845e7be

This was a bad one.
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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2008, 09:09:48 AM »

Jeez, that's a nasty one! The really sad thing in some ways is the people who lived through it but might be permanently injured now.
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« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2008, 09:18:52 AM »

Not to display my own ignorance, but is Greyhound and Arrow Stage Lines the same? If not, should the title of this thread be changed? Just a thought.
Doug Engel, Gunnison, CO
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« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2008, 10:09:02 AM »

Long Beach Transit has a very complex video survalance system on thier buses to keep the passerby from hopping on a bus involved in an accident.  They claim to have saved many $$$ over the cost of the equipment in from fraudulent injury claims
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« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2008, 10:09:38 AM »

What kind of bus was this? My Eagle would never open the roof up and fall apart like this. This bus was not manufactured with safety in mind. Its a piece of junk. So much for composites this thing looks like a bomb went off inside it. How did anyone survive?
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« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2008, 10:35:37 AM »

I agree, it had nothing to do with Greyhound unless they have become the Kleenex of the bus industry.

I also wonder about the construction of newer busses.  I feel 99% positive that my 4104 would not have come apart like that.  I don't think that bus, whatever it was, would be acceptable as a school bus, they must survive rollovers intact.

My prayers to all involved and especially to those of you in the charter business. I know it must put a lump in your throat to think it might have been one of your buses or drivers.

Len
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« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2008, 11:44:50 AM »

Here is a link to some pics of the front of the bus, I can't tell what it is. Doug
http://www.9news.com/imageenlarge.aspx?storyid=84035
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« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2008, 11:51:25 AM »

For any of us to say our bus would not have sustained the same damage is a ridiculous statement. I feel safe in saying not one of us would know what our bus or any other would do after plummeting 40 foot over a cliff and rolling over several times.
Just looking at the damage it's a wonder that more lives weren't lost.
Thoughts and prayers for all those involved.
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« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2008, 04:37:24 PM »

News out of Colorado is indicating a 9th person died today as a result of the crash.
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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2008, 04:45:54 PM »

The three state patrol photos on all the websites do not even show the damage. There's a video here: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2444919. This is just incredible! This is worse than the one that happened a few years back down south and the roof collapsed.

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« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2008, 05:02:23 PM »

If you watch the video on one of the links above, the reporter states that there were only two people left in the bus after it stopped!
He also states there was nobody uninjured!!! 
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« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2008, 08:33:14 PM »

This is why GM's, Crown's, Gillig's and others have such a rounded roof line-they were made strong and made to roll over.  Whereas the newer buses have nearly square roofs with much smaller support beams in between the windows.  I think this unfortunate accident is proof positive of this.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2008, 09:30:35 PM »

From carefully looking at the photos, and watching the video, it appears that this was either a "J" or "E" model MCI, based on the curved stairwell up front.  Interesting, because Arrow Stage Lines has a lot of Setras in their fleet, altho this bus was from another Arrow division.

It is tragic that nine folk lost their lives in this, it is also amazing that so many survived with only minor injuries.

Seatbelts may or may not have helped in this situation, that's a debate that could rage for years - unsolved.

Goes without saying that weather was a contributing factor - black ice, anyone?  Driver survived, so his input will be important to investigators as well as his HOS logs.  Coach probably has a Series 60, so it's black box will also be studied, as well as any on-board video recording devices, if equipped.  Same goes for any tachograph or similar instrumentation.  All will take time. . .

Speculation as to whether an older GMC, Crown or Gillig might have withstood this better is simply that, speculation.  The kinetic energy involved in a bus crash is HUGE, compared to an automobile.  Building a coach to survive a roll-over intact at highway speeds would result in a vehicle similar to a military tank, with gallons per mile fuel economy.  Not going to happen.

However, I would not be surprised to see the USDOT or NHTSA propose new structural integrity requirements out of this.  It's pretty obvious, looking at all the glass in a new coach, compared to the older models, that the roof is not supported as well as before - at least to the layman.

Regardless of all this, our main thoughts and prayers should be for the families involved in this tragedy.

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Cry
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« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2008, 10:26:30 PM »

Very sad indeed and still along ways to get help from lonely area….very sad.

It appears to be similar of a J4500 MCI, according to the detail of front and fender opening.

If average passenger weighs about 185 lbs each….that is near 10000 lbs of people to put extra strain on roof & window’s post to weaken via flexing till it breaks away from rolling a few times. As per what TomC said is true about large radius curve roof will put less strain on posts. Perhaps it will be rolling still faster like a barrel because of rounder roof top & sides.

I believe bus conversion would be less severe damaging due to less payload plus extra walls partition bracing & anchored. Better yet who is driving & owner have more choices as to not drive at this time of the night of possible slippery condition. The charter company job is to get them home safely in a given time frame.

Yes prayers are needed!

Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
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« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2008, 08:54:01 AM »

Most of the dead and injured were from Phoenix, AZ.  Two of the kids were from one school.  Father survived his son did not.  It has hit Phoenix pretty hard.
Lets pray for the families of the dead and injured.
ED
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2008, 09:17:02 AM »

Hi Guy's,

Very Horrific.... I'm offering my prayers!

How many times did the bus roll?  I can't beleve that any of the passengers walked away with pics I saw and Craig's video link..

Nick-
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« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2008, 11:23:49 AM »

Most of the dead and injured were from Phoenix, AZ.  Two of the kids were from one school.  Father survived his son did not.  It has hit Phoenix pretty hard.
Lets pray for the families of the dead and injured.
ED
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There were three members of one family who were killed (two teenagers and their aunt). Their father, mother and two siblings were injured. Their mother was listed in critical condition this morning.

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« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2008, 11:48:05 AM »

Hi Guy's,

Very Horrific.... I'm offering my prayers!

How many times did the bus roll?  I can't beleve that any of the passengers walked away with pics I saw and Craig's video link..

Nick-




I just saw an interview with one of the survivors and he said that it rolled at least 3 times, he remembered each impact.
My question though is what is the definition of a roll? Mine is a complete circle of 360 degrees although I often see people call a 180 which is rolling upside down as a roll.
I sort of have a hard time imagining such a large and heavy machine rolling 3 complete circles, that's a whole lot of mass and physics but.....
Either way it's pretty bad and I wouldn't want to be in there.



« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 11:50:34 AM by Paladin » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2008, 12:07:56 PM »

Passengers want big windows...=  less roof support on roll over.

I have seen a bunch of G bus accident photos.....not may were a total loss like this one.

also helps to be made of all metal and have everything be structural in some way........oh yeah....big meaty c, d, e, f, g pillars
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« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2008, 03:21:03 PM »

One think interesting I noticed on this one is that the entire side panels between the windows and the bays was torn off. I suspect it was fiberglass and glued onto the frame.

Not that it would have added any support to the roof, but it sure makes for a lot of shrapnel in a crash of this magnitude.

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« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2008, 03:37:56 PM »

How did a bus that is about 40' in circumference roll over 3 times in 41'?

  Even if it was a 41' vertical elevation change it would be only 61.5' if on a 45 deg. angle.

Ed
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« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2008, 04:31:42 PM »

How did a bus that is about 40' in circumference roll over 3 times in 41'?

  Even if it was a 41' vertical elevation change it would be only 61.5' if on a 45 deg. angle.

Ed



I agree, the passenger said that he was going by the number of impacts and apparently assumed that each meant one complete flip. Each impact assuming that there were no others would be at least 4 per flip assuming that the bus smoothly completed the turns only hitting the edges as it turned.
I suspect that his counts are off (he did head head injury plus mass confusion) and since apparently the bus landed right side up it would be more likely of a skidding half flip laying it down and then back would it not? Still, lot's o damage for that too.

Either way a really hairy ride and I feel for those folks. I've never ridden on a commercial bus myself, in fact mine is the only one but I'd be pretty scared going through what they did.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 04:33:48 PM by Paladin » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2008, 08:24:21 PM »

Hey I just saw on the news where they said that they found the black box for the bus.
I was unaware that buses carried a black box.
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« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2008, 09:00:45 PM »

Paladin, For years Detroits have had a box, I call it an ECM, that record a lot of information on a second by second basis.  Usually it will tell you the speed the vehicle was traveling for a minute or two prior to the crash, at what second brakes were/weren't hit, turn signal information, hard braking events, etc.  There is a lot of infor mation there.  That is probably the 'black box' they were taking about.
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« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2008, 09:20:03 PM »

I assume the Detroit ECM mentioned here is the DDEC.  I wonder what generation of the DDEC started recording this information, or maybe they all do?
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« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2008, 05:01:17 AM »

Belfert, you are right, ECM/DDEC, same thing.  They have been doing this for quite a few years, not sure, however I think way back in the early 90's.  Someone else may know for sure.
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« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2008, 05:50:18 AM »

Your family car stores the same kind of information. After vehicle accidents with death or serious injury, the police take the computer for download and the data will be used in court.
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« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2008, 07:09:32 AM »

For the record, I agree with the earlier posts.  This was not a "Greyhound" accident, so I'd hoped the moderators would change the topic (maybe "Bus Rollover").  Since the thread is still active, and the information that it wasn't the hound is on earlier pages, some readers may think the Hound really was involved - when they weren't.

Kind of like the news media talking about the 80 passenger bus.

Full disclosure - one of my occasional clients has, as it's parent company, the same company that now owns Laidlaw, and thus the Hound.  That's not the reason for this comment - I hate to see any company be maligned when they weren't involved - when they already have enough of their own incidents.

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« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2008, 07:56:48 AM »

Your family car stores the same kind of information. After vehicle accidents with death or serious injury, the police take the computer for download and the data will be used in court.

My understanding is this is only in fairly new cars in the last 10 years or so.  I've not heard of police routinely using this data.  Lawyers are certainly using this data in civil lawsuits.

I know a lot of people don't like these black boxes, but if you drive sensibly and reasonably close to the speed limit you shouldn't have much to worry about.  If you drive recklessly, well then you need to worry if the box will show you were way over the speed limit right before a crash.

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« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2008, 09:05:21 AM »

Uh, the key is in reading the entire thread. I said that it was apparently still new news. At the time that I posted the thread they were announcing that it was a Greyhound rollover. Also, I couldn't even find any info on the local news stations web pages at that moment.

The point is that at the time of the posting the information might have been incorrect but was the best available since nobody apparently had it right. The real conversation isn't about the company that owns the bus or even fault, it's about a tragic accident. I wasn't aware that anyone was really pointing fingers requiring clarifying ownership.



For the record, I agree with the earlier posts.  This was not a "Greyhound" accident, so I'd hoped the moderators would change the topic (maybe "Bus Rollover").  Since the thread is still active, and the information that it wasn't the hound is on earlier pages, some readers may think the Hound really was involved - when they weren't.

Kind of like the news media talking about the 80 passenger bus.

Full disclosure - one of my occasional clients has, as it's parent company, the same company that now owns Laidlaw, and thus the Hound.  That's not the reason for this comment - I hate to see any company be maligned when they weren't involved - when they already have enough of their own incidents.

Arthur
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