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Author Topic: 14 L series 60  (Read 4588 times)
H3Jim
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1995 Prevost H3-41, series 60, B500 Allison




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« on: February 07, 2008, 05:44:39 AM »

In talking with Dave at Southern Oregon Diesel, he has installed a 14 liter, series 60, 550 HP in a 1995 Prevost.   I am considering the same engine change.  Last year while at the dealer, some of the mechanics said the new 14 liter buses were dogs, that they did not run as well as the 12.7 liter buses. I'm not sure if that because of particulate traps, or other smog stuff, or if the engine is just not as good.

Do any of you have any comments / experience with the newer engines, or comments about the advisability of this?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 09:04:30 AM by H3Jim » Logged

Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2008, 08:51:37 AM »

Jim- it all depends on the year the engine was manufactured.  If you compare a 1998 vintage 12.7 to a 2004 vintage 14.0, I'd say stay with the 12.7.  The key is to find a 14.0 of 1998 smog vintage without the EGR.  They are still being made for export vehicles.  The 14.0 was rated as high as 575hp and 1850lb/ft torque, which is still a intermittant rating considering that MTU/Detroit Diesel offers the S60 14.0 for marine use at 825hp-but I think you'd be at a loss for cooling trying to attempt that much power.  Since the 14.0 is virtually the same as the 12.7 externally, it would be a good up grade.  The maximum power that the 12.7 put out was 500hp at 1650lb/ft torque.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
H3Jim
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2008, 09:07:47 AM »

Well Tom, let me ask you another question.

My series 60 is a 1995, rated and setup for 430 HP.  Dave says that without some serious mods, it can't be increased to any more HP than it currently produces.  My orginal thought was to just rebuild what I have, and end up with a fresh engine, no oil leaks, a little more power etc.  Is he correct in stating  that the early  12.7's need too much to upgrade them?
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Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2008, 09:25:32 AM »

Jim, I'm curious why you're looking to replace or rebuild your engine?  Is yours not working well?

I have an 11.1L Series 60 that is 350HP.  I wouldn't mind finding a 12.7L at 400 to 430HP.  Dina switched to the 12.7 at 400HP in 1996 or 1997 after Detroit discontinued the 11.1L.  A busnut was selling a rebuilt Series 60 along with a ton of other parts for $6000 and I was thinking about it, but it turns out someone bought all of his parts and the shell as a package.

I am thinking at some point I need to pull my engine cradle to go over the engine and fix some minior oil leak issues including replacing the rear main seal.  It would be nice if I could find a decent 12.7L to put in instead.

TomC, I thought the 14.0L was only EGR?  I wouldn't consider a 14.0L for mileage and cooling reasons, not to mention it probably would have a DDEC IV or V and would probably not integrate into a chassis designed around a DDEC III.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
H3Jim
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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2008, 09:33:18 AM »

I'm just a power freak and I don't like slowing down on hills.  It runs great.  Its not smart, and I can not defend this behavior.  I may start pullling a trailer or a car as well and go slower still.  Some of the mountains outside san diego slow me down to 45 or 50.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 09:40:39 AM by H3Jim » Logged

Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

Travel is more than the seeing of sights, it is a change that goes on, deep  and permanent, in the ideas of living.
makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2008, 10:05:17 AM »

Jim check with Valley Power in your area some of the 60s manufactured between 94 and 96 can be made 470 hp by a injector change
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H3Jim
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2008, 10:29:18 AM »

David had his mechanic look up my specific engine numbers and found that I'm limited to 430 HP unless I want to change the cam, pistons, turbo etc.  He thought it would be way cheaper to just swap the engine.
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Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2008, 11:16:29 AM »

hmmm 430 hp.......engine swap or retrofit.........

I'd just put that money in my fuel tank and burn it
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H3Jim
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2008, 03:58:12 PM »

I may do that, this thing looks like its going to add up to some big numbers, a lot bigger than I had originally imagined. or have budget for. It does run well, and only has 430,000 miles on it.
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Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2008, 04:17:05 PM »

yea, david loves the 25 to 40  thousand dollars engine swaps
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2008, 10:56:22 PM »

Jim- some of the early 12.7's had iron top pistons.  When going above 430hp they switched to a steel top piston for extra strength (the new engines now have one piece steel pistons).  Without changing the cam (the valve timing is different to allow more intake time), turbo, you'll get a smoking engine if you just try to pump it up.  The pistons might survive if you watch pyrometer closely, but if you really want to improve your performance, you could rebuild your engine up to 500hp and 1650lb/ft torque (compared to the 1450lb/ft you have now) or you could be on the look out for a 14.0 liter that can either be pumped up to or rebuilt to the full 575hp and 1850lb/ft torque (which would be stressing the B500 in your bus, let alone trying to cool it).  Personally, 500hp and 1650lb/ft sounds good to me-try and get an estimate for the upgrade.  But- here's a point I'd like to make- the 430hp at 1450 was one of the best balanced for power and economy Detroit made.  How fast do you need to go up the hills and are you willing to get probably worse fuel mileage?  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2008, 08:07:51 AM »

I really don't want to stress the tranny. I understand they go between 500,000 and 700,000 before needing to be rebuilt. Most have said its at least $20k to rebuild the tranny.  At 430,000 miles, I am hoping it will last as long as I use it, or at least another 15 years.  More power is definitely not worth trashing the tranny.

I got started down this road (pun intended) because it would be nice to have a little more power, to clean up all the oil leaks, and to clean up the engine compartment.  A little less fuel mileage is no big deal. I've been getting about 7.5.  Cooling could be an issue, and I don't want to create a problem for myself there either.  It always stays cool enough even climbing mountains in high heat with the air conditioning on.  I like that.  500 HP would be a real good number, but from what David says, it would be cheaper to go with an engine swap to get a non EGR, 14 liter, 550 HP, than to rebuild mine.  It seems to be a slippery slope.  I could probably justify $10K to $15k, but its likely to be more than that, and thats probably too much.

He says the 14 liter will fit, will bolt right up to the tranny, my old oil pan can be used.  The air intake pipe needs to be custom made as the turbo is at a different position and angle, my air compressor needs to be swapped as the bus one is larger capacity for the suspension. And there will things that need to be done for the electronics.  The dampener pulley needs to be changed or widened to support the air conditioning and fan belts.  They may need to use my old rocker box cover depending on which brand of truck it came out of.  And  of course, very importantly, the newer engine must have jakes.  I would use the existing radiator.  It was replaced just before I bought the bus.  Water pumps are the same.

Having investigated all this, I'm inclined to just run it as it is, maybe get a paint job instead.  Rebuilding is one thing, swapping is another and sounds to me like I'm courting a lot of issues, problems down the road.
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Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2008, 08:53:38 AM »

Just as an example is my turboing of my 8V-71.  First I had a custom made air to air intercooler made, then had Don Fairchild do the change over.  Then discovered the radiator wasn't cooling enough, so a thicker radiator core was made.  It was smoking at power so a new air cleaner was installed-still smoking so a new muffler was installed.  Was still getting heating issues so installed an air to oil trans cooler (since Don said that the engine did not over heat on the dyno without the trans) with thermostatically controlled fan.  Still heating, so cut and installed two vents in the engine door.  Still heating on over 90 degree days so installed 15 misters on the radiator.  Finally-after all that it runs well and only need the misters on over 90 degree days pulling a long grade.  Last year after summer went to Lake Havasu and also to Las Vegas without the need to use the misters.  Would like to not use them, except I have the largest radiator I can fit installed, without going to a second radiator-which I don't want to do.

Jim- point being-many times what appears to be a simple switch over really creates opening a can of worms.  I'm glad I did the modification-it REALLY made a difference in performance.  Now no more smoke and power on the hills.  My mileage is about the same (5-6).  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2008, 09:12:19 AM »


I'm just a power freak and I don't like slowing down on hills.  Some of the mountains outside San Diego slow me down to 45 or 50.



Jim -

Looks like you've got a serious case of "Tim Allen Syndrome".   Grin

But for Heaven's sake, you're driving a BUS, not a BMW!  Do you expect it to climb 6% grades like the Grapevine at 65 - 70 mph?  Let's be realistic here, ok?

On the 225 mile run from Fresno to the Mouse House in Anaheim, the 8V92TA coach would arrive all of 5 - 7 minutes ahead of the 6V92TA-powered slow poke.   Whoopee. . . What's five minutes?

The vast majority of busnuts on this board would be tickled pink to be able to do 45-50 mph up these grades.  Most of us putter along "sittin' on the governor" in second gear at 35.  And you're complaining about 50?

Guess my response to that is "Give me a break!!"   Grin

Remember the children's fable of the Tortoise and the Hare?  Well, we're driving tortoises here, not hares.  Keep that perspective, and you'll be a happy camper.

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink


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RJ Long
PD4106-2784 No More
Fresno CA
H3Jim
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« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2008, 09:29:07 AM »

Russ, as I said in an earlier post, I have no defense of this desire.  Yes, you are right, it does not make sense.  And its not about getting there 10 minutes early.  Its just that I like to go fast(er).  Every vehicle I own I have hopped up to go faster, except the 5 liter Mercedes and I'm thinking about that one too.

I apologize to the group if I am obnoxious by wanting to go faster than 50 up the mountains.  And its clearly "want" not "need".  But we can't explain / justify / control, just as it probably makes no sense at all to be bus nuts in the first place.

I will give you a break, but its not about you.  I was merely asking for some ideas, and its likely I won't do it, but whats the harm in thinking about how to improve things, or to dream about "better"?  Why can't I go up the grapevine on cruise control? wouldn't that be cool? (or hot).

I'm also halfway done with builing a 500 gallon home jacuzzi on a trailer with a 400,000 btu pool heater and pump so I can take it to the desert and relax after a day of riding.  Thats nuts too, but why not?

I understand Hal with his beautiful Eagle has a freshly built 650 HP 14  liter, and I only hear appreciation or envy from others about his rig.

Signed

Tim Allen the hare
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Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

Travel is more than the seeing of sights, it is a change that goes on, deep  and permanent, in the ideas of living.
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2008, 09:39:27 AM »

Jim -

Ah. . . you missed it.  I was primarily commenting "tongue-in-cheek" in a humorous way.  Sorry if it didn't come across as such. . .

Check your private messages for info regarding your jacuzzi.

 Wink
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RJ Long
PD4106-2784 No More
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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2008, 12:50:50 PM »

As a owner of a 400 series john deere lawnmower with a 350 chevy in it I guess I am really quite the fool.  My children think that I have lost My grip.  Hope that they are right.  I will try to post some pictures so that all can see that being over 65 does not stop fools from dreaming.  John
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H3Jim
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« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2008, 12:53:51 PM »

Sorry Russ, I appreciate the tongue in cheek, I just don't always "get it".  I  tell my girlfriends they have to hit me with a two by four to get my attention, the suttle stuff just doesn't connect sometimes.  Thanks for your comments. 

That was some great info on the pool stuff you sent. I already have a pool heater I got for free, take out from a big apt buildling a manager friend of mine got. That variable speed pump motor sounds right up my alley.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 12:56:50 PM by H3Jim » Logged

Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

Travel is more than the seeing of sights, it is a change that goes on, deep  and permanent, in the ideas of living.
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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2008, 12:57:07 PM »

Nice Jim!  I love the "...I tell my girlfriends...".  Well done my friend
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H3Jim
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« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2008, 12:57:30 PM »

Junkman, YES we need pictures!!
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Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

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« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2008, 05:01:31 PM »

Jim I understand where you are coming from, Being an old hot rodder my self. If you are serious about more hp go with the 14L. I used to work on a truck owned by a hay hauler, it had a 12.7L bumbed up to 525 hp and we inframed it every 250,000-- 300,000 miles. That much fuel in the cylinders keeped them washed down and wore out the rings. He also got 5.5 mpg for what it's worth.

Don
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« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2008, 07:05:27 PM »

Here is a picture of a tim allen eat Your heart out mower.  It is real , has a chute and wing but the mower deck is faux.  Insane You say I agree but a man has to do crazy things according to the better half.  John
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« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2008, 07:55:22 PM »

I like it!  It is along the lines of the V-8 chainsaw, V-8 powered original Mini Cooper, and the V-8 powered push type snow blower.  How fast does it go?  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2008, 08:02:14 PM »

I love it!  I sense another "Hey Y'all, watch this!" story coming!
Dennis
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« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2008, 08:14:52 PM »

Jim, Why don't you call Pittsburgh Diesel and give them your serial number and see what they recommend. They have some innovative electronics available for your engine that would allow you to just have the big power when you want it and will let your engine run its factory parameters the rest of the time. I would guess 6 or 700 hundred HP would be in their realm without causing any unnecessary stress to your engine. (pittsburgdiesel.net)
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H3Jim
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2008, 12:10:23 PM »

Interesting web page, but it doesn't look lke they have anything for Detroits.  In my experience, you can't get something for nothing.  I'd uses the extra power to climb mountians, so it would be in use for 10 minutes or more, and that might be enough to cause some critical parts to overheat / blowup. 

Its also possible that a fresh engine built to the same specs would run a little stronger too.
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Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2008, 12:53:09 PM »

Pittsburg Power does have units for the Series 60.  They label them as DDEC III/IV instead of the engines they work with.

$2395 is a lot of money to potentially cause issues with the motor as they are certainly turning up fuel like the units for diesel pickups.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 01:09:06 PM by belfert » Logged

Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2008, 12:56:16 PM »

Quote from: NJT 5573
Jim, Why don't you call Pittsburgh Diesel and give them your serial number and see what they recommend. They have some innovative electronics available for your engine that would allow you to just have the big power when you want it and will let your engine run its factory parameters the rest of the time. I would guess 6 or 700 hundred HP would be in their realm without causing any unnecessary stress to your engine. (pittsburgdiesel.net)

Author,
Thanks for bringing back memorie$! LOL! I'd forgotten about PD until yer post!  
Jim I can assure you (I'm bitten by the power junkie bug like you and Tim Allen and everybody else! LOL!) they do have and know a thing or 2 for all diesels! Although they are most known for creating some of the badest Cummins that have ever been seen! I had them do some work for me way back when I was trk'n and couldn't keep up with some of their Cum-a-parts in the western mntns! After finding out who was building them I called and talked to them and they said sure can help yer Detroit, but most of our work is on Cummins, I told them yes I knew that and it hurt that I couldn't out pull them in the hills! LOL! I don't recall what all they did but I do remember a new turbo, and some computer work, and when I left I was a happy camper! I loved that ol' trk & the driver that I passed it down to when I got a new CAT 550 hp powered Freightliner Classic XL that was the badest stock engine I or anyone else who seen it, ever saw! That thing out pulled 600 hp CATs Cummins and anything else fr4om day 1 of the dealer lot! Many times I was accused of pumping it up! And many times I was told that someone made a mistake and put a 600 hp or experimental motor in it by mistake, but everytime it was checked out by a CAT dealer it was confirmed to be a 500 hp engine by the ser. # & computer! After 173,000 miles I took it in for it's tune up and we dyno'd it @ 612 hp to the ground with an 18 spd, 3.55 rears and 24.5" tall rubber! That was 1 mean ground pound'n CAT and was the badest and favorite trk I ever had! It was even badder the 600 hp CAT pwrd Pete I replaced it with! (as a matter of fact I took the Freightliner back and gave the Pete to a driver! LOL!).
In other words Jim it wouldn't hurt ya to check with them and see what they are doing with brand X (2 them not us! LOL!) these days!
Grin  BK  Grin

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