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Author Topic: Need help reseting system for new house batteries  (Read 3486 times)
Phil H / Chicago
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« on: February 13, 2008, 07:28:40 PM »

OK guys, I just replaced all six 6 volt house batteries with new ones that have a 232 Ah capacity each. It had 6 volt batteries that I took out, but I don't know anything about them except they were shot. I have the Heart 2500 Source manager and Link 1000. As I read the very confusing (to me) manual it suggest I reset the system and then enter the proper Ah capacity for the new batteries. The factory default is 200 and now that the batteries I am using are 232, what number do I use? I am getting confused about the concept of taking the two 6 volt batteries and doubling the value. So do I take 232 x 2 = 464? Or since I have six total batteries do I take the 232 x 3 = 696? This is all about as clear as mud to me.

I know since  the factory default setting is 200 then 232 is not off by much but guess I should do it correctly right? 

Thanks, Phil
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Hartley
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2008, 07:52:30 PM »

Uh...

If each 6 volt battery is 232 ah and you have two in series then the total ah would be 1/2 of the 232 @ 12 volts.

I have 8 ea 6 volt Batteries @ 232ah in FOUR groups of 2

so each group would be 116 ah X the number of groups, In my case
it would be 4 groups X 116 ah for total of: 464ah total for the bank.

I guess the difference would be if you old batteries were rated at 200ah
and the new ones rated at 232 ah. the actual difference would be 64 ah
greater @ 6 volts or 32 ah greater @ 12 volts.

You could probably leave the default settings which would probably just
come out at a little extra reserve power for later. If your programming was set for a higher charge/discharge rate and you went lower on battery capacity then I would worry about the settings. This way you are fairly safe.

Dave.....

Dave'd and Confused..... Roll Eyes
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DrivingMissLazy
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2008, 08:02:46 PM »

In my opinion you have a total battery bank capacity of 12 volts @ 232 x 3 = 696 amps. That is assuming you have three sets of two batteries connected in series for a 12 volt system.

Richard
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gmbusguy1
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2008, 08:11:57 PM »

I agree with Dave, 232 ah in series= half or 116 ah

Chris
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DrivingMissLazy
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2008, 08:18:08 PM »

Why do you feel the amp hour capacity should decrease just because the batteries are connected in series?

One battery is rated for 232 amps at 6 volts. Each battery is good for 1392 watts. 6 volts times 232 amps = 1392 watts.

Connect two in series and they are good for 2784 watts. 12 volts times 232 amps = 2784 Watts. exactly double the wattage available.

Richard
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Phil H / Chicago
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2008, 09:03:55 PM »

I way I was understanding it is I have three sets of two 6 volt tied together in series making three 12 volt batteries rated at 232. It is a 12 volt system. That's the reason I was thinking I would take 232 x 3 = 696

Phil
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Hartley
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2008, 09:19:58 PM »

Why do you feel the amp hour capacity should decrease just because the batteries are connected in series?

One battery is rated for 232 amps at 6 volts. Each battery is good for 1392 watts. 6 volts times 232 amps = 1392 watts.

Connect two in series and they are good for 2784 watts. 12 volts times 232 amps = 2784 Watts. exactly double the wattage available.

Richard


What? 

Series is additive on voltage, divisive on current. Twice the voltage reduces the total current available. The wattage theroetically stays the same as a single 12 volt battery.

6 + 6 = 12

232@6v+232@6v= 232@12volts. ( aka 116 per battery while in series )

I know it doesn't make sense to many but that is how it works....


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H3Jim
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2008, 09:24:58 PM »

Amp hours requires a voltage to go with it to be meaningful.  Its not just 232 amp hours, its 232 amp hours at 6 volts.  Put them in series, and you have 12 volts, still the same 232 amp hours, but at 12 volts.  You have 3 sets of these 12 volt pairs, and these are connected in paralell, so in this case you get to add the amp hours.

So its three sets of 232 amp hours at 12 volts, for a total if 696 amp hours at 12 volts.


I have a similar case, but I  used 12 volts batteries, and I have 6 of them.  Each of my batteries is 200 amp hours at 12 volts, and I have 3 sets. I wired 3 sets of 2 for my 24 volt system.  I have 600 amp hours capacity at 24 volts.  I get to use 300 amp hours at 24 volts before I start to toast my batteries.  (50%)
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Jim Stewart
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pvcces
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2008, 09:38:37 PM »

Phil, you should set your amp hour capacity at 700 on the Link.

I don't know why Dave wants to do the division, but he's mistaken in this case.

If you look at the examples in your manual, you will be able to figure it out.

Enjoy your new house bank.

Tom Caffrey
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Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2008, 10:01:42 PM »

Amen H3Jim and DrivingMissLazy!

Phil H....you have it correct in your second post.

Memorize the following in your mind.

1) Ampere in series will remain the same.

2) Ampere in parallel will multiply by number of batteries.

3) Voltage in series will multiply by number of batteries.

4) Voltage in parallel will remain the same.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 06:50:41 AM by Sojourner » Logged
gmbusguy1
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« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2008, 05:10:18 AM »

Here's an Idea to solve this problem. Call Heart and ask their Tech to answer the question?

please let those of us that think we are correct know what the manufacture has to say

Chris
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Eagle
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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2008, 05:26:12 AM »

Call 1-800-670-0707 or 1-253-858-8481
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DrivingMissLazy
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« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2008, 06:46:42 AM »

I have to believe that Dr. Dave and GMbusguy1 went to a different electrical/electronic school than I did. I would also have to believe that ideas such as theirs could have caused them a lot of problems in the past. LOL

Richard
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H3Jim
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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2008, 06:57:54 AM »

so GMBusguy and Dave, what did the mfg have to say? 

I am very confindent of the answer, not because I "figured it" out, nor because its my opinion, but because of the work I did with Dick Wright and my Trace inverter when I installed my system.
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Jim Stewart
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gmbusguy1
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2008, 07:05:23 AM »

the answer is 464 ah

gotta run

chris
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DrivingMissLazy
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« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2008, 10:18:23 AM »

the answer is 464 ah

gotta run

chris

It that answer of 464 amps from Heart? Is the the maximum setting of the Heart?

The capacity of the three strings is 696 amps at 12 volts. Something does not sound right.

Richard
 
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Phil H / Chicago
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« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2008, 10:35:03 AM »

OK....I called the manufacturer and they told me 696.

Thanks much guys
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Hartley
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« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2008, 02:04:43 PM »

Phil, you should set your amp hour capacity at 700 on the Link.

I don't know why Dave wants to do the division, but he's mistaken in this case.

If you look at the examples in your manual, you will be able to figure it out.

Enjoy your new house bank.

Tom Caffrey

Maybe what I actually meant was correct, it didn't quite come out that way when typed. No I did actually mean 232 amp hours @12 volt.

For his 3 banks @ 12 volts the 696 ah rating would be correct.
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Hartley
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« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2008, 02:09:05 PM »

I have to believe that Dr. Dave and GMbusguy1 went to a different electrical/electronic school than I did. I would also have to believe that ideas such as theirs could have caused them a lot of problems in the past. LOL

Richard

No not really.
Was running low on Bud Light..wasn't paying attention...

Problem solved.
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Tony LEE
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2008, 02:11:07 PM »

A lot of this confusion comes about solely because someone in the past incorrectly decided to use Ampere-hours as a measure of energy when in fact it is a meaningless unit.
As an example, if you say your pump draws 10 Amps so uses 240Ah per day if it ran all day, and I say my pump draws 5 Amps so will use 120Ah in one day, whose pump is more efficient? The answer is, there is no possible answer given that information.
It may have made a little sense when all batteries and systems were 12V but when there are 24V and 12V and now even 48V automotive systems, it just causes a lot of confusion.

Power is measured in Watts (=Volts x Amps), NOT Amps, and Energy is measured in Watt-seconds or more usually in domestic situations kilo-Watt-hours, NOT Amp-hours or Amp-seconds. Have a look at your electricity bill. A battery stores Energy so connect several batteries together and you add the individual energies together to get total stored energy.


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Don4107
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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2008, 03:04:05 PM »

A little reading to get up to speed on connecting batteries in series and parallel.

http://www.zbattery.com/seriesparallel.html

http://www.gizmology.net/batteries.htm

http://batterytender.com/includes/languages/english/resources/Connecting_Batteries_and_Chargers_in_Series_and_Parallel.pdf

Six 232AH 6 volts hooked up as said will give 696AH at 12VDC or about 348AH (50%) usable to get good life out of the batts.

Don 4107
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Don 4107 Eastern Washington
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bobsw
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2008, 07:08:19 PM »

Now I am completely lost. How do those # add up?
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2008, 07:22:49 PM »

Amp-Hrs is not meaningless, it is a measure of reserve battery power (Capacity).

It is very important for deep-cycle batteries.

Its real value for start batteries is when your alternator fails or the engine takes longer than normal to start.

The primary measure of start batteries is Cold Cranking Amps, this tells you how well the battery will spin the starter.

A-H tells you how long it will keep up that spinning.
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PD4107-152
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2008, 07:47:09 PM »

A little reading to get up to speed on connecting batteries in series and parallel.

http://http://www.zbattery.com/seriesparallel.html

http://http://www.gizmology.net/batteries.htm

http://http://batterytender.com/includes/languages/english/resources/Connecting_Batteries_and_Chargers_in_Series_and_Parallel.pdf

Six 232AH 6 volts hooked up as said will give 696AH at 12VDC or about 348AH (50%) usable to get good life out of the batts.

Don 4107


Bobsw….open “batterytender.com” link and find “SERIES / PARALLEL CONNECTIONS” & fig 4. Explain it very well.

So what is Don is saying “Six 232AH 6 volts hooked up as said (3pr or banks of 6v in series) will give 696AH at 12VDC (3 banks of 12v @ 232amps in parallel)

Hope it help if not please email me silverclip at aol dot com

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
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DrivingMissLazy
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« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2008, 05:50:56 AM »

I have to believe that Dr. Dave and GMbusguy1 went to a different electrical/electronic school than I did. I would also have to believe that ideas such as theirs could have caused them a lot of problems in the past. LOL

Richard

No not really.
Was running low on Bud Light..wasn't paying attention...

Problem solved.

DR. Dave, Thank you for your explanation. I truly suspected that you had imbibed on a very bad batch of Bud Light. I even hesitated in replying to your post as I was questioning my opinion. 

I want to make clear to everyone that all or any of us can make a mistake. I have been following your posts for many years and I believe this was the first time that I have ever observed you making an error or mistake and I strongly recommend you get rid of the rest of that bad batch of brew, if you have not already done so. LOL

Richard
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H3Jim
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« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2008, 07:58:13 AM »

Dr Dave, I second DML's comments, your reputation made me question myself.

Send some of that brew over here, I need some after the day I had yesterday. Shocked)
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Jim Stewart
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« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2008, 03:22:27 PM »

Actually I re-read what I said again.

In a way if you look into the calculation although it looks obviously wrong, the outcome is still correct. of 232amos@12 volts per bank. Then they are paralleled for 232 X 3 for the 696

It was a simple mistake of theoretically halving the available amps of each 232 amp battery to get to the 116 ... Then the 2 @ 116 = 232@12 volts

I simply ran out of beer that powered my calculator.... Shocked Shocked

I had a brain fart and was figuring out some resistance values on something else that took a few complicated series-parallel values.

My next project is buildng a Flux capacitator and a Mr.Fusion to run my bus....

Write now its all confusion. Just because I can't explain it doesn't mean it wont work.... The Impossible we do immediately, The Difficult takes longer...

Thanks Guys,

Dave...
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« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2008, 03:41:11 PM »


Two 232 ah @ 6v batteries wired in series provides 232 ah @12v.

Put 3 sets of these in parallel and you get 3 x 232ah = 696ah @ 12v.

That's what you should put into your meter so it knows how to manage the input and output amps.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 07:41:38 PM by gumpy » Logged

Craig Shepard
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« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2008, 04:36:40 PM »

Imagine that 2 brain farts in the same post on the MAK board hahahahah

who would a thought

LOL
Chris

at least I confess to mine  (this time at least)
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gumpy
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« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2008, 07:40:54 PM »

That last post was supposed to have been in good fun as it appeared several had run out of beer while posting their responses. After re-reading it, I think it may not have been taken as it was intended and for that I appologize to Chris and Dave. I'm going to
modify it....

craig
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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2008, 07:44:50 PM »

NO NO  NO  your post WAS taken in Fun by me

no reason to apologize

Chris
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DrivingMissLazy
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« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2008, 08:08:04 PM »

I would also like to say that it is a real pleasure to have a discussion like this without someone starting a flame war. Thanks, Guys.

Richard
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