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Author Topic: Not funny.  (Read 4014 times)
chazwood
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« on: February 25, 2008, 11:29:45 AM »

Just a disclaimer that the following post contains nothing funny.
Had this been an actual post........


Could someone save me a little time poking around and explain a easy way to conclude that the turbo is working properly on my 6v92T?

Also, the squirrel cages above the engine (where my two squirrels, that power the bus, live ) have a trap door in the bottom that look like they are connected to an air piston to open and close. Mine look as if they have been stuck open forever. Should they open and close automatically?

Oh, and one other thing.... I notice that the cages my squirrels run in are connected in the middle to a gear box with tranny fluid in it. How do you check the fluid level?


Thanks.

P.S.   I'm still waiting for my Manual.


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1992 MCI 102c3
Cummins l10 / Allison auto
Thekempters.com
Tenor
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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2008, 11:38:51 AM »

I can't help with the turbo, but the piston you see is designed to close off the radiators to help the engine maintain heat under certain circumstances.  There is some disagreement on whether or not to even keep these, and I don't have an opinion.  The gear box should have a glass sight gauge in it.  At least they did on MCI 7's.  Don't know why they would change that.  You will be so happy when you get that manual!   Grin
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Glenn Williams
Lansing, MI
www.threemenandatenor.com
1968 MCI 7 Ser. No. 7476 Unit No. 10056
8v71
4 speed Spicer
tekebird
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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2008, 11:45:10 AM »

Tennor you are not really correct.

if still equiped there are shutters on the radiators themselves to regulate engine temp (heat faster or maintain het.

the shutters in the engine compartment were to shut off flow of the squirel cage fans in an attempt to inclrease HP or rather not lose HP.....as a Squirel cage fan that is not actually moving air uses little to no power.....basicallyt a cheap thermostatically controlled switch type of thing.

they are not needed and the savings in HP is negligable.  Many were secured open to prevent failing shut type of issues
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Tenor
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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2008, 12:10:23 PM »

I'd never heard it put that way Teke, but it makes sense as well.  Here's a link to a thread from a BNO that I started when I had these questions and you can certainly see where the temperature discussion comes into play.

http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/19177.html

In fact, I should update it in that I did find the original shutterstat above the squirrel cages in the radiator line.  MCI moved the shutterstat location by 1973 to the drivers side radiator pipe and I found the 1968 location by accident.  They also really moved air lines around quite a bit.  Then I found the original air supply line that had been cut in the seat ledge above the engine bay.  I did repair the line, but have not rebuilt the  shutters or supplied air to them.
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Glenn Williams
Lansing, MI
www.threemenandatenor.com
1968 MCI 7 Ser. No. 7476 Unit No. 10056
8v71
4 speed Spicer
Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2008, 12:14:20 PM »

Quote from: Tenor
the piston you see is designed to close off the radiators to help the engine maintain heat under certain circumstances.  There is some disagreement on whether or not to even keep these, and I don't have an opinion.  The gear box should have a glass sight gauge in it.  At least they did on MCI 7's.  Don't know why they would change that.  You will be so happy when you get that manual!   Grin

Tenor,
You are correct here the pistons are to close the flaps which in turn make it hard for the squirrel cage to pull/blow air thru. I can't say if it's good or bad, but most of the MCI's I have serviced over the yrs have had those removed long before I worked on them! The way I see it if it has working shutters outside the radiators then that should be sufficient in keeping air from being pulled thru the radiators! (that is the way our 102A3 has beensince the day we bought it and it does just fine! Yes, we do make sure the shutter stat & shutters are working in cold weather!)
You are also correct about the sight glass on the gear box too! Again everyone I've worked on had one! Most are so filthy that the average person wouldn't know that they are looking at a sight glass, until it is cleaned with a paper towel and a finger! Take caution do not over fill! It will blow out (if yer lucky it won't blow the seals out, but most likely it will)! I know this from letting a new guy in the shop service a bus for a customer once! He filled the gear box completely full! That extra gear lube had to go somewhere! And the tray where that gear box mounts on a certain MC8 located in VA sis a mess even though it's been steam cleaned, steam cleaned, and steam cleaned over and over and over and over and you get the idea! It doesn't leak a drop of gear lube,, but the tray is still nasty and who knows where all that gear lube is coming back out of once things get warmed up back there! (So Frank remember that! If ya remember the day you bought it I showed ya the sight glass and told ya to to just make sure it has lube in it & NOT TO OVERFILL IT!)

Chaz,
The sight glass should be located on the lower left side between the gear box and the squirrel cage. Also if your engine is not extremely weak and belching huge amounts of smoke constantly (when I say huge I mean like a mosquito smoker on full blast all the time), or blowing oil out around the seems it is probably fine!
FWIW! Grin  BK  Grin

PS I don't own a conversion yet but I love reading about your experiences! LOL! & by the way go to a SAWMILL and get virgin timbers that have been rejected to make your ramps out of! (all the mills I have ever been too have been happy to give me several timbers that were rejected after hitting a nail or spike! But even if ya had to pay $5-10 ea it'd be worth it!) Also try to get them from a mill that does hard woods not soft wood! Good luck, be safe and keep posting!

Quote from: tekebird
Tennor you are not really correct.

if still equiped there are shutters on the radiators themselves to regulate engine temp (heat faster or maintain het.

the shutters in the engine compartment were to shut off flow of the squirel cage fans in an attempt to inclrease HP or rather not lose HP.....as a Squirel cage fan that is not actually moving air uses little to no power.....basicallyt a cheap thermostatically controlled switch type of thing.

they are not needed and the savings in HP is negligable.  Many were secured open to prevent failing shut type of issues

See even I learned something here when I read what Doug had answered while I was typing! Thanks Teke!
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
Tony LEE
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« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2008, 12:57:17 PM »

My "8" has a dipstick for the fan gearbox oil level.

Correct oil is not "trannie fluid" as in automatic transmission fluid.
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2008, 01:21:44 PM »

My "8" has a dipstick for the fan gearbox oil level.

Correct oil is not "trannie fluid" as in automatic transmission fluid.

Tony I ain't gonna argue that it don't, but yers would be the first one I saw that did. The young man (early 20's) I had service Frank's bus (while it still belonged to the church) on his 2nd day working for me (had been working in a trk garage for about 8 months b4 that & was a friend of my main mechanic) swore to me (when we discovered what had happened that he'd " just filled it up to the dipstick level" too! When I asked him to show me this dipstick, he loosened the filler plug and pulled it out and said see "right there is a dipstick!" I almost beat him! I said "you da damn dipstick, that's just there to hold that chain on it so it don't get lost!" There was a little piece of what looked like an oil dipstick that was bent 90* and had a hole in each end one was for the T-bolt coming thru the plug to go thru and the other was for the little chain to be crimped thru! FWIW  Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
Hartley
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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2008, 02:05:16 PM »

On my 1983 MCI MC9 ( ex NJT )..

The shutterstat is located on the right upper raditor line. It operates TWO cylinders that are located ( one on the lower portion of radiator front side ) that actuate the shutters. The regulator is on the right upper bulkhead also.

The cylinder under the center is the belt tensioner. It is required to keep that
big and long fan belt running true. There are no flaps or other nonsense except for a small flap to help keep trash from getting up into the blower box.

The Oil that is supposed to be in that gearbox is NOT, NEVER transmission fluid.
It is gear oil or could be 40 or 50 wt oil. I run lucas gear oil in mine.

The shutters are NOT and I repeat NOT a horspower saving device. They are designed to allow the engine to get up to and maintain optimum operating temperature. Most are set to open at 195 degrees. some are at 170 also.

A COLD running detroit is a wasteful engine. They need to be up in the proper temperature range for best performance and least smoke.

If you have piss-poor radiators or a bad cooling system then you have bigger problems that worry about the shutters.

I replaced both of my radiators with NEW cores. After that I needed the shutters to be working because I couldn't get the engine temps over 150 degrees. Peformance was off and not very responsive. I enabled the shutters and performance and fuel economy came back.

Keep in mind that many older buses that were equipped with shutters have had them removed or disabled for either cooling problems or maintenance reasons. ( lazy people! ).

Tekebird,

Please don't offer your expert opinion on subjects that you have no clue about. Sometimes your messages just confuse things because either you don't know or are guessing. There are lots of people here that DO know what they are doing and have been down the long road of learning. Let us handle the questions Please.
Just watch and you might actually learn something.

Sorry Guys, This is just starting to ruffle my feathers since I am not a little robotic bird built by disney... Smoke & Mirrors.... Grin Grin
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buswarrior
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« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2008, 02:27:23 PM »

The damper doors above the engine seem to be more prone to trouble than the shutters on the outside of the radiators. Engine room exposure versus out in the wind?

When the return springs in the pistons get weak, they leave the dampers just a little shy of full opening. The effect of having them get lazy is shocking. In pleasant weather, the coach can overheat if one door is shy by an inch from fully open.

Many southern busnuts have successfully removed the whole kit and kaboodle, as they don't go driving in the cold, and spending the time and money to restore a system that is not well understood in the warmer regions of the continent doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

To give you an idea, in near freezing weather, you pull off the highway, idle around to a parking spot, park, get out and walk down the back, the shutters have already closed, or they close within moments of you reaching the rear of the coach, as the cooling system has already bled off all the heat, and the motor is heading below the thermostats.

I have disconnected the lazy pistons on my damper doors, ensuring they are fully open, and left the shutters operational. When I run out of things to do, I'll see about restoring full functionality, but for now, good enough.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
chazwood
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« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2008, 03:02:13 PM »

I guess I must have one of those southern buses. The shutters that cover the radiators are missing and the trap doors over the engine are fixed to stay fully open. This must be why last weekend with weather in the 40s it took a long time to warm up. No?
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1992 MCI 102c3
Cummins l10 / Allison auto
Thekempters.com
tekebird
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« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2008, 03:05:23 PM »

Dr Dave, I can assure you and will be happy to bet  you that I am correct on the intention and design of the Shutters for the blowers themselves.

It is COMMON knowledge that a Squirell cage fan that can't or isn't moving air is not using as much power.  it is the exact same thing is going on on the Factory Coach A/C compressor.....which I am expecting you have removed from your coach.

yes the electric motor or in this case belt driven system basically is freewheeling.....your savings in power comes from the reduced resistance or drag on the fans.

care to make a wager.

I am young and I look dumb but I generally do not pose opinion or comment that I can;'t back up with fact......

thats why I leave electrical stuff alone comment wise...and leave the HVAC stuff to our resident expert



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tekebird
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« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2008, 03:08:57 PM »

chazwood,

does your bus have radiator shutters outboard of the radiators?


now on mine the Dampers on the blower boxes have also been locked open.

It was quite common for these to fail shut.....causing engine heating issues.

On mine...40 today.......equipes with operating radiator shutters and shutterstat.....temp gauge was off the bottom before the air was up to 120

check to see if your bus has the shutters on the radiator and they are working.....they should shut when the bus is off....thus you cannot see the radiator
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tekebird
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« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2008, 03:13:34 PM »

Dr Dave,

aditionally...the equipment on the radiator are shutters

the equipment on the Fan boxes are Dampers.

don't know abaout your NJT Cruiser......but it may very well have been ordered without these dampers.

there were never installed on late model MCi's with this fan setup as they were problematic...and didn;t save much power.....although they did save power...just wasn't   worth the hastle.

perhaps it is you who needs to police his own posts......most of my experience is not from making mistakes but being educated properly in the first place.

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DrivingMissLazy
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« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2008, 03:15:21 PM »

OK, guys. Knock to off. We do not want any flame wars starting.

Richard
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chazwood
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« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2008, 03:31:38 PM »

chazwood,

does your bus have radiator shutters outboard of the radiators?


now on mine the Dampers on the blower boxes have also been locked open.

It was quite common for these to fail shut.....causing engine heating issues.

On mine...40 today.......equipes with operating radiator shutters and shutterstat.....temp gauge was off the bottom before the air was up to 120

check to see if your bus has the shutters on the radiator and they are working.....they should shut when the bus is off....thus you cannot see the radiator


No shudders......dampners locked open
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1992 MCI 102c3
Cummins l10 / Allison auto
Thekempters.com
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