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Author Topic: Electric Radiator fans for MCI  (Read 6960 times)
wvanative
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« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2008, 09:24:38 AM »

Wow!  I had no IDEA of how much this has been discussed.  I found the BNO post dealing with Two Dogs.  What a mess.  I think I'll drop the idea and stick with what works.  I know there is merit to going to aluminum radiators when possible/practical.  I did the same on a 63 Ford Galaxie.  Makes a big difference.  I don't know if I'll ever get west, but I don't want to be stuck worrying about not being able to!

A side note,
As I read through the Two Dogs post on BNO,  I was really taken aback by just how unpleasant the postings were.  I am glad that I have never seen such inappropriate behavior here.  I also have to say that things have not been as bad as that since I joined BNO as well.  Different opinions are one thing, but there is no excuse for being hurtful.
Tenor, That's the smartest answer I have seen in a long time. If you think about it how many of the big boys I.E. MCI, PREVOST. use electric fans to cool their power plants. You are wise beyond your years to read and listen to the addvice you find on this board. You my friend get an ATTABOY today, way to go.

WVaNative
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Dean Hamilton Villa Grove, IL East Central IL. Near Champaign
Still Dreaming and planning
luvrbus
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« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2008, 09:41:29 AM »

Can someone tell me the difference in a hydraulic fan motor and electric controlled one with the same rpms and power as most are using the hydraulic fan motor now and isn't the fan on the new D4505 MCI a three speed electric fan I didn't notice any belts but I did see the 3 speed fan switch in the drivers area
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 10:04:27 AM by luvrbus » Logged
kyle4501
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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2008, 01:26:01 PM »

A 40 hydraulic motor is much, much smaller than a 40 hp electric motor.

It is all about heat rejection. The bigger/ more efficient the radiator, the less air flow you need.

A centrifugal fan uses little HP to make pressure, it is moving the air that requires the HP. So closing off the inlet to the radiators will drastically reduce the power requirements to the fan.

If the electric fan supplier can't provide a fan curve, the fan probably isn't suitable for bus radiator cooling.

As for why manufacturers use hyd drive over belted - My guess is it is easier to design & fine tune. Not to mention more flexibility in radiator placement.


If I were to change from original on my Scenicruiser, my preference would be a hydraulic fan mounted to the swing out radiator. This would make engine access easier & solve the issue of expensive repairs to the fan drive gearbox.
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oldmansax
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« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2008, 01:50:20 PM »

Stan,

Unfortunately, the PO removed most of the shutter system and, even if he didn't, it still take HP to turn the gearbox..... not to mention the normal wear on the components. That is why I was asking about a clutch system.
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'82 BlueBird WanderLodge PT40 being rebuilt
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Stan
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2008, 05:39:03 PM »

Kyle and anyone else with a 4501: The miter box that has the fan attached can be a nightmare. It uses tapered roller bearings (which aren't the best choice for end thrust) and if they fail you have to machine the casting for a different bearing and seal. The bevel gears are 1:1 which means they are worn in in one spot. If you have to remove the shafts ensure that you mark the gear teeth before removing the shaft. Setting up the gears with shims is like setting up a crown and pinion. You torque it all up, blue the teeth, turn it one turn and then take it apart to change shims and do it all again. If you haven't marked the teeth before you take it part, you have several days of work trying to get it back into the original mesh before it will set up properly.

You are fortunate in having parts buses. When I looked for a gear box, I knew where there were several scrap 4501s and they were all missing the fan box.

oldmansax: If you use a conventional fan clutch, you will still have the belt turning the hub (the clutch goes at the fan, not on the crankshaft).. The additional HP required to turn the gearbox without a fan load will be small. You would be saving most of the HP that is wasted when cooling is not needed. However, it is like the electric fan discussion. If you spend enough time and money, anything is possible.
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boogiethecat
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« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2008, 06:43:14 PM »

Oldmansax, I don't know the particulars of how much space you have in your fan area, but I can tell you what I did with my Crown.
Horton makes an eddy-current 2 speed fan clutch for skid-steer tractors.  It's not too big and costs around $600 depending where you dig it up.  It's all set up for serpentine V groove belts, so it wouldn't work as-is on my Crown... but that never stopped me...
I bought one, machined a V-belt pulley for it out of a 9" steel disc (That was one ugly lathe job), pressed it on where I'd machined off the serpentine belt grooves, and there I had it, a nifty doodah for my Crown that lets the fan lazily idle along most of the time, until my engine hits 185, the sensor gives it 12 volts: full on it comes.  It works amazingly well.
I'm guessing 1-2 Hp most of  the time and then when my big monster fan needs it, full-bore!!

Here's the part numbers and where to get em...
For Case tractors, It's called an "ECI" and is availiable as an option on skid steers...
 Case P/N is:  336 635A1     $560.77 as of a few years ago
"Fan mount with Clutch" (it is NOT an Agricultural tractor part, so make sure you have the Skid-steer guys on the phone)
 
Horton's part number is 996500
HORTON engineering (fan drives):
1-800-621-1320  cust support

A 190 degrees mechanical snap action switch is part number  993617

Maybe these days they make easier ones to modify or directly use.  When I got mine, Horton was just getting into it all and they were pretty scarce.

The nice thing about these as compared to air clutches, is that that these use eddy currents (made by permanent magnets) to drag the fan along slowly when the clutch is off, and then when the clutch is on, full bore.  The two speeds that the thing creates is exactly perfect for buses... at least mine.... Air clutch systems are pretty much on or off, and don't have the nifty two speed feature.
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1962 Crown
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« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2008, 07:15:38 PM »

Someone may have already described his post, but Mark Renner appears to have solved the electric radiator/motor thing.  He's got some new pix of his setup over on the BNO board.  Renner HAS engineering skills!  He's got a to-die-for Eagle too. 
While I wouldn't try this due to my total lack of engineering skills, an electric motor would not have to be a fraction of an ICE exchange. 
Large DC motors (any size motor in any voltage) is readily available. 
I have a 30 HP Advanced DC brush motor in an electric car that would rip the fans apart in a bus.  It is far more powerful than the 180 HP ICE engine that it replaced.  At the least, it has huge torque and power available. 
I'd guess a pair of 2 HP DC motors would supply enough airflow for a properly engineered cooling system. 
My thoughts would be that if automotive applications work with electric fans, a bus engine could be cooled with an electric fan, or fans, if someone wants to go to the trouble.  I see the engineering as the hangup.   Even some GM Suburbans had only electric fans cooling 454 engines with automatics and AC.  It worked fine.
Placing one huge radiator with two fans in the rear of a MCI similar to a D model should make cooling easier.  There would be a natural flow thru the radiators at highway speeds...unlike MC5 thru C model bus radiators. 
What I would fear with these sorts of mods is a failure on the road.  Where do you get parts?
One thing's for sure...if the MCI rad fans really draw up to 40 HP...that would be worth some effort to recover.   
When I replaced the EEPROM in my DDEC and found a little over 300 HP (from 270), it made a world of difference...40 more HP would be great! 
Now who's gonna try it in an MC with side rads??
JR


 
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

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« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2008, 08:45:40 PM »

you'll note that mark is not running a detriot....I do not know if his new poerpalnt runs cooler than a DD.

now bringing up cars is apples vs oranges.....NO ram air cooling on a bus radiator..pretty much anything through it must be sucked through, also keeping in mind it takes a bit off effort to suck air in that is flowing past at 60+ mph.

not to say it can't be done, just takes some effort and engineering and cost.

Alot more folks out there that have tried and failed than succeeded.
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busnut104
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« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2008, 09:31:20 PM »

I made a set up that if I need extra cooling on my mc8 with a 8v92, I can use the big bus interior heating radiator  and exit the heat to the out side of the bus instead of the inside.
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ChuckMC8
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« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2008, 03:23:06 AM »

I beleive that the most efficent and economical way to increase cooling capacity on MCI is to add aux air to oil trans cooler. Mine is as big (my cooler) as the side access door in the pic (18" x 24" x 3") with 24 volt elct fan.
Its dual controlled, I have a toggle switch on the dash and it also has a sensor thats turns on the fan when the engine temp gets to 205.
   This cooler was made for Allison and the fan is a Hayden. I paid $125 including shipping for the cooler and $65 Inc ship for the fan, both via ebay. Both were new.
   The fan never runs auto, sometimes I just turn it on to watch the water temp drop whie driving.
  Of course, I remove heat from the trans fluid in order to remove heat from the engine coolant.
    I also turn off the gate valves that supply heated coolant to the front of the bus in the summer time, so the originall bus beater core and lines capacity arent any effect in the cooling issue.
  I am running 8V71TA (377 hp) with HT740D with all stock cooling components that are set up and maitained properly. ( all is clean with good gaskets and such)
  The biggest "hill" that I've been over is MontEagle in Tennessee- I flipped on the trans fan and cruised up at 45 mph. No cooling issues!
 About $200 plus two hoses for the trans cooler setup. EZ install also-  HTH Chuck
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« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2008, 05:12:18 AM »

I hope you can believe me when I say that electric fan cooling just doesn't work.  Even the huge 300 amp @ 14vdc Delco alternator (as huge as it is) only creates 5.6hp of electricity.  For proper cooling you need at least 20hp.  This is why hydraulic is used.  Both the pump, motor and hydraulic lines are rather large.  Believe me if electric was possible, the OEM's would use it since electric is a whole lot simpler than hydraulic.  Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, stick to what is proven-especially since our lovely 2 stroke Detroits are thee hardest engines to keep cool.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
oldmansax
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« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2008, 06:52:45 AM »

Oldmansax, I don't know the particulars of how much space you have in your fan area, but I can tell you what I did with my Crown.

Here's the part numbers and where to get em...
For Case tractors, It's called an "ECI" and is availiable as an option on skid steers...
 Case P/N is:  336 635A1     $560.77 as of a few years ago
"Fan mount with Clutch" (it is NOT an Agricultural tractor part, so make sure you have the Skid-steer guys on the phone)
 
Horton's part number is 996500
HORTON engineering (fan drives):
1-800-621-1320  cust support



Thanks Boogie!

I have a MCI MC7 with the usual belt/gearbox setup. I was thinking of a clutch that would bolt on to the front of the crank shaft replacing the existing V belt pulley that now drives the fan gearbox. This arrangement would eliminate the belt, gear box, and fans when the clutch was not engaged.

It appears that one of my major problems in designing and installing this system so far is I am both LAZY & CHEAP!   Grin Grin Grin

I am working to overcome those obstacles but it is an uphill battle!

Thanks for the info, though. I will take some measurements (that is easy to do & low cost) and see if I have room for your arrangement.

TOM
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« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2008, 07:12:03 AM »

Oldmansax,
Keep in mind there is not much room between the engine and the bumper support/cradle support.  It may be easier to put this on the gearbox.  Keep us posted!
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Glenn Williams
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« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2008, 08:28:14 AM »

I hope you can believe me when I say that electric fan cooling just doesn't work.  Even the huge 300 amp @ 14vdc Delco alternator (as huge as it is) only creates 5.6hp of electricity.  For proper cooling you need at least 20hp.  This is why hydraulic is used.  Both the pump, motor and hydraulic lines are rather large.  Believe me if electric was possible, the OEM's would use it since electric is a whole lot simpler than hydraulic.  Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, stick to what is proven-especially since our lovely 2 stroke Detroits are thee hardest engines to keep cool.  Good Luck, TomC


TomC you are wrong about the electric cooling 90% of your buses made in China and Spain have electric cooling only.In the US the price of fuel has never been a concern till now and you will be seeing more a electric fans here in the future to save on fuel even the hydraulic powered fan create a large hp drain on the engine    have a good day
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skipn
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« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2008, 08:42:47 AM »

 
 In reading the almost parrelell threads on two boards I have come to the conclusion that with the brain trust available a viable solution should be able to be obtained. Leaving one to their own devices to do the design and implement a solution is asking for the mixed results we hear about. I will grant you that since I am running a 4 stroke my heating issues are not as great as those of you with DD's. So I am going to proffer some hypothysizes and those of you with the knowledge and desire take your best shot and refute the hypothesis. From this I believe move from the apples and oranges situation we keep getting stuck on.

 Hypothis 1:   HP is the resultant efficiency we are trying to gain not the input of the equations.
    reason: If it was nothing more than HP waste then there wouldn't be any difference between my
               Class C 460 running 18K # @ 4 MPG and MCI L10 28K # @ 9 MPG.

 Hypothis 2:  When one is looking at the dissipation of heat in the form of BTU/H then all of the system needs to be
                   looked at not just the engine.
    reason: The transmission is a tremendous heat generator. I can tell you from personal experience that being
                on the transmission test bench having a hose burst and being burned was not fun. That was only a
                100 hp bench. I believe Chucks transmission cooler set up needs to be included in an overall design.

 Hypothis 3: Squirrel cage fans are more efficient than blade fans in moving air.
     reason:  In trying to redesign my coach heating system I was amazed how hard it was to find like SFCM
                 with the same amp draw.

 Hypothis 4: Electric motors per hp turning an item are more efficient than the same mechanical (engine) hp.
     reason: It is one of the major reasons locomotives use diesel over electric.


  Well there you have what I consider a start. Please if you can provide formulas and the such that would be great.
  This soft science of my hypotheses won't cut it but I need more of which you with the capabilities can supply.

  I really think that if I can show a positive ROI in a 2 or 3 year period I would be trying a conversion.
    Thanks
   Skip

  PS I have tuff skin on this so flaming me won't bother me a bit Smiley

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