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Author Topic: Has anyone else heard about the DOT outlawing 2 strokes in California?  (Read 4503 times)
Songman
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« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2008, 06:41:03 AM »

Ahhh.. but there is the fantasy. People have been led to believe that 4 strokes get better mpg. But it's just not true. The problem is that most people just drive their 2 stroke into the ground because they are such tough engines but never think about actually making them run better or more efficient. Don gets 8.5 mpg out of his 8V92 while pulling his big ole Chevy 4x4 crew cab dually. Most people who I have heard talking about their 60s are only getting a little better than 7 after going to all the expense of upgrading. The 6V92 in my RTS got a little over 9.5 going cross country last year.

The gov't and the manufacturers put out these 'facts' about two strokes and people believe them and tell all their friends. Before long it's like gospel and hard to convince anyone otherwise. Since getting to know Don last year, I now know otherwise because I have seen it firsthand.
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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2008, 07:08:20 AM »

The state of CA may try and push the little guy around but the railroads that use the 2 stroke EMD are not going to have any part of it they have used that engine for 70 years and are not having much luck with the new 265 four stroke.   

Parts for the 2 stroke will be around when the 60 and 50 series are just a memory so don't sweat it enjoy the times
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TomC
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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2008, 07:13:30 AM »

Songman- while it is true you can squeeze better fuel mileage out of a 2 stroke with a skilled driver, the pure truth is that a 2 stroke with DDEC will get down about .36lb fuel/hp hour.  While a 4 stroke DDEC will be around .32, and the new DD15 is down at the .30 mark.  Even with my bus getting 5 mpg when pulling my car at 34750lbs, that would be like me getting close to 46mpg with my 3750lb Mercedes 300 turbo Diesel-which I average 25 mpg.  Going the other way, if the bus was as efficient as my car it would get 2.7 mpg-which I have never seen.  The worst has been 4.5-pulling my car during summer with the gen on for A/C.  So the fuel efficiency of buses is still pretty good.  What is really good is a carefully driven truck at 80,000lb getting over 7mpg!  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2008, 07:27:45 AM »

2 strokes won't be outlawed here in Canada for at least 20 years after California does it. Grin

Last week the local Detroit dealer Quoted me on a Factory rebuilt 8V71  $17,000
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Songman
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« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2008, 09:18:48 AM »

Tom,

I don't know anything about all those engineering type numbers. I just hear guys talking about getting around 7 with their 60s while Don gets 8.5 on a regular basis towing and my 6V92 got 9.5. For me, I drive slow so I expect better mileage but Don is pretty much a speed demon at times so his mileage surpasses any 60 I have ever heard of in a bus conversion - even when they are not towing. It's seat-of-the-pants number that matters to me instead of what they are supposed to get on paper. My wife's Chevy HHR is supposed to get 30mpg highway. It will do that on a clear day on flat ground driving 55 mph with the cruise on and the A/C off. But in the real world it averages around 24-26.

Of course, maybe it is like you said, maybe Don is just a skilled driver and that is why he gets such better mileage. It is true that most 2 stroke guys aren't getting that kind of mpg. I just chalked it up to Don keeping his engine well tuned and making changes that will pull more efficiency out of it.

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belfert
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« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2008, 09:39:53 AM »

I got an honest 8 MPG with my Series 60 running 65 MPH on cruise last fall for 4,000 miles.  That 8 MPG also includes about 40 hours of generator usage.

The bus was pretty heavily loaded with 7 guys and all our gear.  The cargo bays were completely full plus we pulled a small 500 lb utility trailer.

Certainly the older lighter buses with manual trannies get pretty good mileage, but my bus compared to a MCI 102A3 or similiar with auto tranny and a two stroke still does a fair bit better than the MCI.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2008, 10:39:42 AM »

My wife's Chevy HHR is supposed to get 30mpg highway. It will do that on a clear day on flat ground driving 55 mph with the cruise on and the A/C off. But in the real world it averages around 24-26.


Hey Songman

 Put in a k&n filter! I have a 06 HHR with the 2.4 motor and i am getting 29mpg with the Ac on and running 75 to 80mph up the 14 to lancaster but i only use it on bad weather days because i ride a motorcycle so i can cut traffic on the &^%$ 405 freeway.
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Songman
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« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2008, 11:28:35 AM »

I don't envy you having to be on the 405! That's for sure!

Do you do any HHR events down there? There are a lot of active HHR owners around CA. I've helped organize a couple of events. Maybe we've met if you have.
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« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2008, 11:33:03 AM »

The only HHR event that i have is when i pass another one on the freeway. Its a great car and no problems at 58,000 miles
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Songman
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« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2008, 12:54:04 PM »

You should join us for the 2nd Annual Deja Vous Rendezvous. Lots of great modified HHRs to see and get to take laps around Irwindale Speedway, of course it is pace laps instead of speed laps but still cool. Also, join chevyhhr.net to keep up with all the events, advice, and good deals on parts!

Event date is August 16, 2008
This event once again is limited to 30 HHRs. Last year we had 21.
Last years participants will have there spot saved
if they register by April 30,2008. New participants can register anytime, your date of entry is proof of time and date registered.
Agenda will be the same as last year.

1. Meet at Auto Books-Aero Books in Burbank on Magnoliaat 8:00am
coffee and donuts, show and shine, leave about 10:30am and cruise to:
2.Sierra Chevrolet in Monrovia. Show and shine and eat. Leave about 1:30 pm cruise to:
3. Irwindale Speedway for more show and shine and a couple trips around the track and then some great raceing.
And most of all getting to everyone.

Registration this year is by e-mailing me your:
Name
Address
Phone number
at: rbudhill@comcast.net
and just saying you want to be one of Harvey's STOCK, MILD AND WILD FRIENDS AND WE WILL SEE YOU AT DejaVous Rendevous.
No registration fees this year. 2 free passes to the races per HHR, children under 12 are free. I will e-mail or call each one to confirm your registration.
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HighTechRedneck
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« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2008, 03:04:32 PM »

I haven't seen anything on a statewide ban, but there was a more localized ban discussed at length in the Detroit Diesel Yahoo group a month or so ago.


I remember that thread of discussion, and it was more centered around meeting Tier-II and Tier-III emission standards in CA. Let me see if I can find the thread...

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DetroitDiesel/message/14539

I think that's the starting message of a long thread HTR may have been referring to... It takes a while but eventually the thread get to talking about things that can be done to make 2-stroke DDs comply, or at least be more compliant.

- John




Going back to this, I was looking at a link provided in another topic and noticed an article on the Port of LA's plans.  One of the things that was being brought out in previous discussions was "how could they force small owner/operators to withstand the high cost of new rigs."  Enter the solution - mandate that all carriers servicing the port to only use employee driven trucks, no contracting private operators.  Apparently Long Beach considered this before, but backed down from it when threatened with law suits from the carriers.  But Port of Los Angeles is moving forward with a vote on it tomorrow anyway.   Their logic is that fleet operators are being required to upgrade their trucks, whereas private owner/operators aren't as likely to be upgraded.

http://www.etrucker.com/apps/news/article.asp?id=67611

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Songman
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« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2008, 04:46:08 PM »

Don and I go to CARB meetings regularly on this issue. ANY commercial operator who operates his rig in CA has to upgrade equipment to meet standards. They have a very complicated plan in which operators have a number of years to become compliant. They mentioned the docks specifically. No machinery that doesn't meet requirements will be legal to work on the docks, regardless of fleet or owner/operator. I don't know what the vote will be about because it isn't a choice for the docks to make. It is a CA state regulation.
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RickB
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« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2008, 04:50:28 PM »

Thanks for the info. The gentleman from Canada may be correct but my friend from Minneapolis just tried to sell his 84 MCI 9 and was told that he could not sell his bus to a Canadian citizen without a letter saying it was built by a licensed bus converter and that the 6v92 was considered an illegal motor to import as well.

I am just relaying info so don't tee off on me.

Crude oil dropped almost 7 bucks today. Felt it at the pump today here in Nashville.
Diesel went down a whole two cents...
Considering diesel fuel takes four less processes of refinement than regular unleaded it's hard to understand the logic that it's 83 cents more expensive at the pump.

I'm sure I'm just stupid and there's a perfectly good reason for all of this...
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« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2008, 05:48:35 PM »

I don't know what the vote will be about because it isn't a choice for the docks to make. It is a CA state regulation.


The Port of Los Angeles on Thursday, March 20, is scheduled to vote on a truck replacement program that requires motor carriers to hire employee drivers ....

.... The L.A. port's version of the plan, however, includes a major -- but not unexpected -- break from Long Beach, which recently adopted a plan that will allow motor carriers to continue to use independent drivers. The trucking industry has resisted the employee mandate, saying it would raise its costs and open the door for unionization. ....

.... The American Trucking Associations also has said it will bring a lawsuit if either port attempted to force motor carriers to hire employees.  ....

.... Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, a strong proponent of the employee-based plan, lauded the L.A. port for moving forward. ....

.... Villaraigosa said. “These recommendations pave the way toward less pollution and clear skies, and I urge the harbor commission to back this proposal and set this region on a course toward a greener, more sustainable future.”
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jackhartjr
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« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2008, 06:52:15 PM »

Transport Topics, (A leading trucking weekly) had an article about the LA Ports Plan this week.
It seem the Teamsters and an environmental group are backing this stupid plan that will be overturned if passed.
Jack
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Jack Hart, CDS
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