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Author Topic: Truckers threaten strike!!!  (Read 6745 times)
brojcol
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« on: March 24, 2008, 07:47:43 AM »

http://www.qctimes.com/articles/2008/03/19/news/iowa/doc47e03e9ea03bd427238845.txt?sPos=3
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2008, 08:18:47 AM »

Personally I think we should do what Mexico does and have the oil companies be government run.  Then we know exactly what the price of the fuel is since all Pemex stations are priced the same.  In my book, there is no reason for a company to make profits in excess of $40,000,000,000.00 (40 billion).  Especially when our economy is based so heavily on petroleum products.  I live in L.A. which is the most spread out city in the world, with probably the worst mass transit system.  I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that I would continue to drive if the prices went to $10/gallon-along with the majority of people-meaning we're car bound.  I wish our government would step in and lower the prices back down.  I know I'd be satisfied with a $.50/gallon reduction-and stay there for some time.  Course too, the car companies could jump in also with cars that get better fuel mileage-read turbo-diesels.  The Mini gets about 35 mpg with gas and close to 50 with Diesel (although the Diesel isn't going to be imported).  The Smart For2 gets about 42mpg with gas and around 60 with Diesel.  There is a Diesel Hybrid being designed that will get close to 80mpg-now that's what I call a good commuter car.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2008, 08:21:42 AM »

I wish I could say it will work. But having been in the trucking & Bus industry all my life, I know it won't! The only way it will work is if the majority of the industry shuts down for just a day or 2 mayb 3 at the most. But that will never happen, the major companies will not join & most of the independents won't either.
The big companies won't for 2 reasons #1) they are affraid they will lose their big contracts with their shippers & receivers & #2) they think that if the others shut down they will be able to take over more contracts.
The independants won't shut down crying that they can't afford too because they got payments to make and families to feed. And I know they do, back when I was an O/O trucker I had the same worries. But I also knew that if enough of us banded together we would be heard. The banks don't want to REPO all those trucks they did that back in the late 90's and got stuck with tons of them! And many also see it as the oppertunity to get some loyality (yeah right) out of some shippers and receivers if they keep hauling when others shut down.
The company drivers won't join in because they are afraid they will be fired (again yeah right) as if there isn't already a major shortage of good quality drivers anyway!
We tried to do several shut downs in the late 90's and it was the same stories over and over! The last ime it worked successfully was back in the 70's when the teamsters did it and they had drivers scared not to shut down! Unfortunitly yes violance was involved back then, but the guberment & the public heard the demands and things changed for a little while. FWIW Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2008, 09:35:25 AM »

Personally I think we should do what Mexico does and have the oil companies be government run.  Then we know exactly what the price of the fuel is since all Pemex stations are priced the same.  In my book, there is no reason for a company to make profits in excess of $40,000,000,000.00 (40 billion). 
. . . .  Good Luck, TomC

Right, like the gubbermint can do anything more efficiently. Aren't the taxes already higher than the proffits? ? ?

The bigger the company, the bigger the proffits should be. Ain't that what made this country great?

Bill gates didn't get all his $$$$$ without healthy profits. So what's the difference between big oil & microsoft?

A good marketing campaign works wonders at keeping the customers in line with cash in hand . . .


Yes, I did like the lower prices. No, I didn't expect them to stay low, especially after 'they' got us addicted to using the product.

My in-laws bought their house based on walking distance to work so he wouldn't have to pay for gas. He never allowed himself to get addicted to cheap gas, so the higher price is more of an inconvenience than anything now.

How many are willing to buy a house & base their planned activities on walking distance? Most have bought into the marketing ploy that you don't have to plan ahead - you can just drive anywhere at anytime. It is hard to get away from that way of thinking.

To me, that is my biggest problem - not being able to plan ahead. When I try, it seems I'm swimming up stream.  Tongue

There are several that I could car-pool with to work, but they don't want the inconvience because it would take longer to get home from work!  Shocked

With that attitude, say hello to $10+ per gallon!
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2008, 10:09:18 AM »

OK, do you guys really think gas will go up to 10$ a gallon?

I just saw a mass transit bus in our parking lot with only three people on it.  I can't see us going that way. 

I think the best idea is to increase fuel efficiency in our automobiles.  Wouldn't be so bad to pay 10$ a gallon if you got 100 mpg.
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2008, 10:31:32 AM »

Wouldn't you think that a company that made 40 billion profit would want to do more business?Huh

Then why don't they?Huh

Maybe someone or some thing is stopping them!!!!!!

GEE I wonder who would stop some company from getting more oil or energy out of the ground and stop them from building refineries to make gas and oil out of the stuff they got out of the ground.

Find what is stopping them and get rid of that and we get more gas and oil.

What a concept.

Melbo
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2008, 10:33:04 AM »

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In my book, there is no reason for a company to make profits in excess of $40,000,000,000.00 (40 billion).

Wow... I don't know what business you are in, but that statement is very dangerous.  Who should get to decide how much profit is "too much"?  Should we allow someone to audit your company every year and decide if you made too much profit?

If you have an issue with that $$$ figure, your problem is with the people who paid that much money for petroleum products.  All the company did was maximize the investment of its' shareholders and return the highest possible profit (which the market would support) for their risk.  ...kinda like what I hope the companies in my 401(k) plan do for me.  To say that the profit is "too much" is to advocate taking the stock earnings away from my grandmother, the pension plans, etc. that have invested in those companies.  And frankly, my grandmother scrapes by on her retirement so I bet she would be just a little offended.

Do I have an issue with the price fixing by OPEC?  Yup! Do I have an issue with Uncle Sam taking 40+% of every fuel $ I spend?  Yup!  But penalizing a company for legal maximizing shareholder value...no way.

BTW, look at their profit margin as opposed to the net $$$.  You might surprise yourself.
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2008, 10:45:43 AM »

As far as oil company profits go, yes, the dollar amount is huge, but their profit margin is not all that great at only around 10%.  Their total revenues are sky high which is why the profit is so high in dollars.

I would certainly love to pay less for fuel, but consider if oil companies made zero profit that the cost of fuel would decrease less than 10% since the fuel taxes don't change.
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2008, 11:06:01 AM »

I really think that the majority of people need to understand that when a company is in business to make a profit then the general rule is "Price of the product is based on what the traffic (customer) will bear" not on the cost to produce and deliver the product.

Richard
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2008, 11:41:32 AM »

As far as oil company profits go, yes, the dollar amount is huge, but their profit margin is not all that great at only around 10%.  Their total revenues are sky high which is why the profit is so high in dollars.

I would certainly love to pay less for fuel, but consider if oil companies made zero profit that the cost of fuel would decrease less than 10% since the fuel taxes don't change.

I'm afraid that I don't buy the 10% margin story.  SOMEBODY, is making a 100% higher margin this year than 4 years ago and I think it is fairly certain the cost of getting it out of the ground didn't double in four years.  And the cost of refining it didn't double in four years.

It has been pointed out recently in other threads that investors have gotten heavily involved in the crude oil commodities market.  Until that bubble bursts and they move on to something else, I think this trend will continue.  Once they do move on, maybe then it will get back to a supply and demand market again. 

Then again maybe not.  For a long time, the industry was certain that there would be a threshold where consumers would cut back and so they worked hard to keep from crossing the $1/gallon at the pump threshold.  Then they feared the $2/gal. threshold.  When demand went up and prices neared $2 per gallon at the pump, OPEC would nervously increase output to avoid crossing that threshold.   When retail prices crossed the $2 threshold and people didn't cut back, they gained confidence that nothing would lower volume.  Now, OPEC stands solid that they won't increase output because they know they own us.  Bot figuratively and literally.
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2008, 11:56:18 AM »

This is a dangerous subject for this board. Once it turns political, you know that flame wars will start and people will have hurt feelings.

Knowledge is wonderful, so post all the hard facts that you have, but most personal opinions just tend to cloud the issue. Great conflicting opinions can be read in the books by Adam Smith and Karl Marx.
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2008, 12:15:13 PM »

I think the only thing an individual can do is cut down on consumption. 60mph instead on 75, less iddling, etc. When comes time to trade, get a truck or car that uses less fuel. Maybe you don't really need all that power. Passing on the cost of fuel to the end-user is the only way. I know it is hard to do in such a competitive trucking industry, but that's all one can do. An economic slow down will also take the sails out of fuel demand. In our capitalist economic system, the only way to reduce prices is to reduce demand. The only way the government should be involved is by cutting back fuel taxes. Because they pig out on the sale of fuel as much as the oil companies do.
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2008, 01:17:27 PM »

GREED GREED and GREED I believe this is the problem.  How many company's have moved their operations South or to China to increase profits?  They don't care about this country or anything else just themselves.  It is the same with Exon-Mobile, GREED GREED. When CEO's gets MILLIONS of dollars in bonuses something is wrong and it is with us stockholders.  We don't care as long as the dividends keep comming.  We Americans will not unite and stick together.  Look at all of the posts about this subject.  EXCUSES EXCUSES why something will not work.
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2008, 05:05:29 PM »

GREED GREED and GREED .  We Americans will not unite and stick together.  Look at all of the posts about this subject.  EXCUSES EXCUSES why something will not work.

We really are a spineless lot, our forefathers would be deeply ashamed.
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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2008, 05:35:23 PM »

We bumped into a tv network called LinkTv on Directv.  They explain a lot about what is happening to our country and economy. There was a recent program on corporations.  As they say, corporations are suppose to make money, no matter what, just like a shark eats anything they can swallow.  That is what they were invented to do.  It's a real eye opening tv station and if you don't get the station, they have a website,  LinkTv.net. Be warned though,  they seem to be mostly democrats.  We just found it very interesting, not taking sides on anything.

Don and Cary
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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2008, 07:09:08 PM »

Exxon paid $100 BILLION in taxes last year.   That's a lot of cash.
Nationalizing our fuel supply would be an unmitigated disaster...IMHO.  Who remembers when Nixon tried to micro manage our petroleum industry?   The feds cannot manage anything.  They make one stupid decision after another.   And throw money uselessly at any problem.   
Liberals think $5 a gallon fuel is desirable...conservatives are too spineless to take a stand.   Liberals are the devil reincarnated...modern conservatives are a bunch of sorry losers.   What do we do with our two party system?   I have no idea.
The crude producers are who is getting rich.  Refiners make a decent living.
My feelings cannot be hurt by talking politics.   
The only thing that's going to bring fuel prices down is for us to use less of the stuff. 
If we have a good recession, you'll see prices come down. 
America is the 3rd largest oil producer in the world...we could be the 2nd if not for the tree-huggers. 
Another reason that fuel is so costly is our blends for clean emissions.   Saw a bit that stated the world is cooling at a rather alarming rate...and has been doing so for about 10 years.
Yet we are still trying to control "Global Warming"!!!!!  Hep me.  Save me from our government!   Embarrassed
Have a happy day!  JR


 
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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2008, 07:13:04 PM »

famous last words
"I am from the government, I am here to help you"
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2008, 07:43:48 PM »

Yes JR,

Our tipical Goverment...

You cut yourself. Call a gov. agency to get you a band-aid, after they research the need, find all the mfg.'s who produce them, locate contractors that can deliver,

then put the bid process into play, your wond healed about 10 months ago.....

Nick-
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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2008, 07:55:53 PM »

America is the 3rd largest oil producer in the world...we could be the 2nd if not for the tree-huggers.


Because I don't really want to see one of these horseheads in my back yard.

 
Another reason that fuel is so costly is our blends for clean emissions.


And I don't want my city looking like this.

I do however agree that the government should not be running the oil industry, or any industry for that matter. In fact this document http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution does a pretty good job of laying down guidelines for a good government. However, left to their own devices, men (and women) in positions of power can and do screw things up to a fare thee well.

- John

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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2008, 08:01:05 PM »

You guys are missing the solution to the oil prices, it's very simple, we just invest in oil futures and think we'll make money, as soon as we do that the bottom will drop out of it. lol
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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2008, 08:02:45 PM »

America is the 3rd largest oil producer in the world


Here is the reference http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/country/ to back up that claim.

- John

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« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2008, 08:16:06 PM »

What do we do with our two party system?   I have no idea.

I seriously doubt that you have no ideas. I'm sure you have ideas almost as good as mine  Wink  the problem is that they probably go against the status quo, and let's face it, people in power like to stay in power.

I also believe that Pogo (Walt Kelly) had it right.

- John

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« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2008, 08:19:05 PM »

Save me from our government! 

How Modern American.  Undecided

- John

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« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2008, 08:19:50 PM »

Even as the 2nd largest producer, we are still importing a whole lot more than we produce.  The USA would probably be in a far better position if we didn't have to import oil.  No more worrying about the value of the dollar.

I saw some number a while back about about the known oil reserves in the USA.  I calculated that if we could pump all of our needs from our known oil reserves that our entire oil supply would be depleted in around 30 years.  The world oil supply will last around 41 years if no new oil is found.
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« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2008, 10:30:14 PM »

If I don't like how much Bill Gates makes, I don't have to buy a computer.  If I don't like the prices that Sears or Macy's or WalMart or Safeway or KMart or Radio Shack charges I won't go there.  But when it comes to an industry that literally controls our entire country and in my case getting to and from work, I can't go elsewhere to buy fuel-I'm stuck to the whims of the petroleum industry.  Granted, if I had time I could go make BioDiesel, but now I don't-so I'm like a puppet to the gas stations.  With an industry as powerful as the petroleum companies (could you imagine what would happen if they all shut down?), this is why I believe this monopoly needs to be broken by government intervention.  Then with the lowering of all gas prices, we will all have more money to pour back into our struggling economy.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2008, 05:47:40 AM »

Quote
America is the 3rd largest oil producer in the world...we could be the 2nd if not for the tree-huggers.

Because I don't really want to see one of these horseheads in my back yard.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

If you are not using any petroleum products, your statement is valid.

I resent the attitude, "I am doing fine, you can have have the dirty end of producing oil"

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« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2008, 06:32:36 AM »

no comment
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« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2008, 07:41:35 AM »

Well said TomC.

Yes we don't need government's micro management but part to their duty/responsibility is the protection of ALL the people when to few gain to much control. Government has stepped in before to balance the powers within the airline industry, telecommunication industry, medical industry, even Bill Gates.....why not the oil industry.

Ok, I'm leaving now.

Phil
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« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2008, 09:13:04 AM »

The gummermint broke up standard oil because the fear was J.D. Rockerfeller had too much power. The reality was that ole JD used that power to lower the price by eliminating middleman markups. When he started, kerosene was selling at more than $3/ gal. When standard oil was busted up, JD had lowered the price to less than $1. All the middlemen & his competition devised the scare tactic marketing campaign to take away his power. Seems to me it worked. The scare tactic marketing also worked well for DuPont when their royalty rights expired on freon12. But that's another story . . .

You might think you don't need to buy a computer directly, but I doubt you could function if no one had one. It is the exception when you can buy ANYTHING without one. I'll bet you can't perform your job without one - what happens if the 'puter crashes?

I wouldn't mind a horse head in my yard! Have you heard of fences, bushes, or trees?

As for more gubbermint intervention, I don't know how I can stand any more.
What ever happened to free market?
Or better yet, personal accountability for your own actions?
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« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2008, 09:56:55 AM »

At risk I have the following to offer:

I feel the gov't does one thing well and that is to defend the country. May cost alot of money but worth it. I will not commit as to whether we should be where we are currently, but when needed the military does its job as told Extremely Well.

I believe that the gov't can eliminate some of the many blends of fuels and simplify the storage/deliver/ manufacture of fuels. Cut out the spring/ fall / regional blends etc.
 
Make EPA reg's that would work and still allow oil refineries to open and be built. This would increase the thru put and cut out the down time risks of the production. I believe increased supply would allow more competition and hopefully lower prices.

I would love to see Nuclear Energy come back, but with one gov't approved designed reactor, not the one off every time...Less expensive,

Stop the subsidy to ethanol fuels, Do not need to pay to produce fuels ( costing 121 % to produce amount of energy recouped in the produced fuel) Have my Post Toasties costing $ 3/box instead of $ 6.

I am for free markets and letting things find their level within the big scheme of things.

Any one's thoughts.

Gary Pasternak

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« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2008, 02:31:10 PM »

This is what scares the bejabbers out of petro producers.

http://electricandhybridcars.com/index.php/pages/electriccarnews.html

Just a couple of years ago the interest in these things was only from geeks and engineers.  Now everyone's trying to be the first to intro a functional plug-in.  We are getting a glimpse of the future in the above posts.   
It might even help the diesel car guys by freeing up gasoline needs. That will allow more diesel production.
Now where are the power companies going to find all these KW hours to charge the nation's EVs? 
NOOKULAR energy!
JR


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« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2008, 04:58:02 PM »

At risk I have the following to offer:

I feel the gov't does one thing well and that is to defend the country. May cost alot of money but worth it. I will not commit as to whether we should be where we are currently, but when needed the military does its job as told Extremely Well.

Sorry the government does that as badly as anything else they try. WWII the army got about 1 in 10 solders to the fighting; it just doesn't show as almost all armies are government run. This is not a put down of the army I am a proud former member of the All American 82nd Airborne.

I believe that the gov't can eliminate some of the many blends of fuels and simplify the storage/deliver/ manufacture of fuels. Cut out the spring/ fall / regional blends etc.

Yes they could but politically they can't and if they did half a dozen green groups would have them in court the next day.
 
Make EPA reg's that would work and still allow oil refineries to open and be built. This would increase the thru put and cut out the down time risks of the production. I believe increased supply would allow more competition and hopefully lower prices.

Increased production would lower prices but new refineries, power plants, dams, etc. aren't built because of green group opposition, NIMBYers, anti-car lobby.

I would love to see Nuclear Energy come back, but with one gov't approved designed reactor, not the one off every time...Less expensive,

See above.

Stop the subsidy to ethanol fuels, Do not need to pay to produce fuels ( costing 121 % to produce amount of energy recouped in the produced fuel) Have my Post Toasties costing $ 3/box instead of $ 6.

Yes! Let the market decide.

I am for free markets and letting things find their level within the big scheme of things.

Any one's thoughts.

Gary Pasternak


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NJT5047
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« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2008, 07:52:50 PM »

Anyone notice that Valero, the largest refiner in the US, is having profitability problems?
This is what happens when old refineries cause problems, a glut of gasoline collects in storage due to customers buying less product, and crude prices  higher than the market will absorb.   
Gasoline has hit the magic point where people are buying less product.  Only a fraction of reduced sales will cause fuel to back up. 
Valero is being pinched from both ends. 
Market commodity speculation is what's supporting crude oil.  Not market prices.  I suppose commodity speculators are a form of "market forces", but they skew things out of the norm. 
They'll take a hit too.  Some win, some lose.
Also take heart that in China, where fuel is relatively inexpensive due to gov price controls, they are having problems with distribution.  Dealers won't buy and sell at mandated prices.  Refiners are illegally selling refined product on the spot market for higher prices than the locals can afford.  Locals are losing there butts buying at high import prices, but selling retail at gov mandated prices. 
Soon the Chinese will be paying more for fuel, which should cause a reduction in demand...and maybe a few riots?
We'll watch and see. 
China is finding that market forces are stronger than communist forces.  They cannot 'manage' the value of the market.   They are having major inflationary issues.
Energy costs will come down...may be temporary, but they'll come down.
JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
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« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2008, 09:03:38 PM »

I read these posts and wondered if anyone here has ever read an Exxon yearly report. I have because I own some stock in them. As far as I can tell most of their oil goes to making things non fuel related such as plastic, rubber,tar etc. They own a bokoos of oil they are saving unpumped underground to pump out when the price is right. They are not buying it from OPEC but they are getting OPEC prices. Most of their places are located in non US places that are not subjected to US taxes and so on. It sounds like they are doing a fine job of making money which is there job by the way. If we all quit buying fuel from them it would go unnoticed. As for me I have a little Honda Insight and a motorcycle for when the weather permits but I still wish gas was .25 a gallon.
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« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2008, 02:31:51 AM »

Lee Bradley,
Thanks for adding the "rest" of the story I didnot include. You covered that well. Our energy policy is strangled by not the green movement, but rather the career politicians whom need votes to continue their lifetime of public service, which for many of them means they never worked a day in their life.
NJ5047,
You also point a great myth of an electric car plugged in to avoid oil consumption, only to have the nearest electrical generator utilizing some fossil fuel to supply said electric...

Thanks all, but Lee and NJ thanks for expanding the comments.

Have a great day, Gatta go to work, and need to dodge the sniper fire.
and that is more of a reality in Camden NJ than one may think....

Gary Pasternak
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« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2008, 07:17:34 AM »

Many Americans commute more miles to work than the border to border distance of some European countries. They don't want to live close to where they work and want that American dream of a large house in suburbia.

We have long laughed at Europeans riding bicycles to work and when they buy a car it lasts a lifetime. The always high price of gasoline has not been a major issue in Europe. When they make a major trip with their car they use less fuel than the average American uses every week.

Electric cars don't solve the basic problem of people driving too many miles.

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« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2008, 10:42:38 AM »

And we wonder why the US cannot produce adequate energy?

>>>>>The lawsuit, filed Wednesday in federal court in Washington, D.C., contends that many of the species ranging from butterflies and snails to grasshoppers and cactuses could face extinction if action isn't taken.
"In a world that's bombarded by climate change, pollution, habitat destruction and human over-population, clearly few of our rare species are going to be secure in the long term," Nicole Rosmarino, director of WildEarth Guardians' wildlife program, said Monday. "That's the basis for the petition
.<<<<"

We're talking New Mexico here!  Save me Lord!

BTW, pure plug-in electric cars are reaching the 200 mile per charge range.   Some "plug-in" hybrids get 125 MPG during the first 100 miles, and after 100 miles a tiny high-tech turbo gasoline motor kicks in and will operate the vehicle for another couple hundred miles as it both powers the vehicle and recharges the battery.   
These vehicles are not available yet, but the next two years will see introductions of all sorts of hybrids, hybrid plug-ins and pure plug-ins.
The power companies say they have the off-peak power to charge plug-ins.  As long as they avoid peak times, which would be relatively easy to do.  Timers on dedicated charger outlets would solve that problem.   
Technology is going to save our butts.  May not save our buses, but we'll survive with personal transportation.
Anyone see where refiners are cutting back production due to being unable to raise fuel prices vs the cost of crude?  The market just won't bear any more price increase on finished product, yet crude has not dropped in price.  Our thirst for gasoline has started to diminish.  Cool. 
There was a 500 million barrel refined product drop in US storage capacity, but it's related to production cutbacks and not increased use by auto drivers.
JR


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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
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"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
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« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2008, 12:23:06 PM »

oil prices were goverment regulated during and after ww 2, also the trucking industry, in 79 Mr carter deregulized oil prices and the next day prices went up from .50 a gal to .75, trucing companies shut down and the trucking business was runied, somebody needs to keep an eye on it or companies like exxon will desolve our way of life. They also shut down most of the american oil wells so they could buy from middle east. its simply not right for the big companies to make hugh unreasonable profits at the expence of the american public. there are tons of oil in the ground right here in the u.s and i think we need to be pumping it instaed of letting them do us in.
Frank Allen
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« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2008, 09:59:39 AM »

I don't have a problem that they make big profits. What I have a problem with is the way they do business, refinery's running at 80% capacity, where they ran at over 95% capacity before the oil prices went thou the roof or they shut down for maintenance when there's a shortage exacerbating the situation or keeping cured oil supply low to inflate prices. Didn't Enron do this to California in the 90's.
Ron
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