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Author Topic: HYDROGEN MPG BOOSTER  (Read 8505 times)
bassfid
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« on: March 25, 2008, 02:07:35 PM »

Any busnuts heard of this Huh
http://www.water4diesel.com/

There are many other web sites too!

bassfid pd4106
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Slow Rider
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2008, 04:20:37 PM »

I have been researching this subject for a while.  The experts say it doesn't work. The people using it say it does.  I personally don't know a soul who has a working model.

There is a member of the board who is also researching this and has a friend who claims to have a working vehicle with many many miles on it.  He is going to convert a vehicle this summer and test it for himself.  If he chimes in he will give you more info, if not..

While the theory is sound the detractors say you can't extract enough gas to run your vehicle with the materials and amount of electricity available.

I hope it does work I could use the break on the fuel costs.  Time will tell......

Frank
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tekebird
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2008, 04:39:32 PM »

bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!

water will ruin injectors...thats why they invented water seprators and drygas etc.
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Lee Bradley
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2008, 04:41:34 PM »

http://www.todayinsci.com/Books/MechApp/chap23/page56.htm

The problem being that it takes as much energy to break the hydrogen/oxygen bond as you get back in recombining them.

Remember Newton's three laws:
1. You can't get something for nothing.
2. You can't break even.
3. You can't even come close.

P.S. Many of the machines listed on that link were granted patents by the U.S. Patent Office.
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cody
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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2008, 04:58:41 PM »

Your absolutely right, it doesn't work, and because it doesn't work a very close friend of mine has almost 4,000 miles logged on a dodge caravan entirely on hydrogen now, and the injectors are performing like a champ, the only major difference is the exhaust system has been changed to stainless.  And because it's not logical to be viable, I'm going to have our jeep converted next summer.  Remember the bumble bee that can't fly? I can't say specifically how it works because he is currently appling for the patent on his process but I have seen it run and it runs flawlessly.
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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2008, 05:15:50 PM »

bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!

water will ruin injectors...thats why they invented water seprators and drygas etc.

They aren't talking about mixing water in the fuel.  They are cracking the water molecule using electrolysis and directing the hydrogen and oxygen into the intake air, theoretically enriching the fuel charge.  In some ways, it is similar to adding nitrous oxide, just not as potent. 

As for Lee's concerns about the laws of Physics, this process isn't trying to create energy from nothing (can't be done).  It is about increasing the efficiency of combustion by enriching it with oxygen and hydrogen.  Assuming a significant improvement in combustion efficiency, it would offset the electric requirements of electrolysis.  Keep in mind that most gasoline engines operate at less than 30% efficiency and even the best diesels are under or around 50%.

That was a poorly done website and had way too much hype for my taste.  I don't trust that site's business, but I am intrigued by the process.  If it works for Cody, I will certainly be interested in it for my pickup, and eventually even my bus.

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Tony LEE
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2008, 12:28:24 AM »

"has almost 4,000 miles logged on a dodge caravan entirely on hydrogen now, and the injectors are performing like a champ,"

So he has injectors injecting pure hydrogen into the cylinders.

Certainly amazing stuff.
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Slow Rider
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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2008, 05:58:39 AM »

Since Cody is out making sawdust I will step in and make a fool of myself.

I believe he is trying to point out his friends set up does not use gasoline when it is running on the hydrogen generator.

The byproducts from the separation are hydrogen and oxygen, this is fed into the fuel injection system as the primary source of energy.

And yes it is amazing, almost magic to some of us Smiley

Frank
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steve5B
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2008, 06:36:10 AM »



  I would like to let everyone know (being a fuel chemists) the only way to enhance diesel fuel combustion is 2-ethyl hexel nitrate.

  This is the same product that is put in at the refineries. The higher % of this product in your fuel will result in improved fuel
 
  mileage.



  Steve 5B.........
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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2008, 06:46:26 AM »

Easy Teke, you'll have a stroke.  Roll Eyes  High Tech is right.

Steve, not sure what that is. But if hydrogen is a combustable gas, like NOS or even Nat. Gas, couldn't that help in the burning effeceincy of the fuel? Just curious.

If any of you are also interested in the hydrogen thing, Purdue has done some pretty cool stuff recently. Search Purdue Hydrogen for a bunch of articles or click here for an interesting one:  http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2007a/070515WoodallHydrogen.html
 I hope this becomes viable. We - the world - really needs it. They already are marketing Hydro (gen) cars and building a Hydrogen Highway in CA. (I guess that just means hydrogen fuel stations every so often) And if it does pan out that the introduction of hydro helps with fuel consumption in my "baby", what a great deal!!!!  

   Chaz

p.s. In the imfamous words of Teke, the site originally posted "water4diesel" is B******t! At least it seems to have that written all over it.  There are charlatans everywhere, but I hope hydro is still viable.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 07:05:55 AM by Chaz » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2008, 07:12:07 AM »



  I would like to let everyone know (being a fuel chemists) the only way to enhance diesel fuel combustion is 2-ethyl hexel nitrate.

  This is the same product that is put in at the refineries. The higher % of this product in your fuel will result in improved fuel
 
  mileage.



  Steve 5B.........

So adding additional oxygen to combustion is useless?   Doggone it, turbos are a waste of money.   Wink

Keep in mind, we aren't talking about adding water to the fuel, but rather cracking the water molecule using electrolysis and adding the resulting hydrogen and oxygen to the intake air.  Not via the injectors, but rather just adding it to the intake air flow.  The oxygen aids the complete combustion of fuel and the hydrogen adds yet another combustible to chamber.  I suspect the oxygen is the more important factor here.

My main skepticism is whether enough oxygen flow can be generated on demand that way to make a difference given the volume of air flow we are talking about for a 92 series DD.  But if Cody's friend is running an entire engine (gasoline based engine I believe) on the flow, then surely enough flow could be introduced to a diesel to improve combustion.  In fact, perhaps the bigger concern is not to inject too much oxygen and create a cutting torch effect on the exhaust ports.

Assuming the process does significantly improve combustion efficiency and hence power per stroke in the form of increased available torque, then to get the most mpg gain, it seems to me that the rear end ratio should be changed to reduce the engine rpm at any given speed.
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2008, 09:09:18 AM »

for all those who immidiatly dismiss the thought of hydrogen or any other fuel source please read the qoutes on the following web page and immagine where we would be today if everyone believed them or as my favorite states:

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."

      --Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

http://www.langston.com/Fun_People/1995/1995BKM.html

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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2008, 09:33:09 AM »

Framers did this during the great depression. A friend of mine install a system on his car in the mid 70's, 68 Valiant with a slant 6 cylinder. Did it work .... well yes in a way ... it works best if it is hot outside with low humidity, the engine has to be up to operating temp.

He had a 5 gal water container on the floor on the pass side with a 1/4" plastic line running from the water container to the intake manifold and he had a petcock valve and a vacuum gauge. He regulated the flow of water with the petcock value, vacuum gauge and the engine temp gauge, a balancing act.

He could get as high as 15% water for some significant fuel savings ... but the down side is the loss of power, which was not that much of a problem with a light car but a heavy bus would be a different animal.
Ron
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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2008, 09:57:39 AM »

As an innocent bystander I am having a difficult time getting my head around what goes on inside the engine cylinder with this H2 + O injection.

In the cylinder you have put air (about 16% O) and some fuel in quantities that will give complete combustion of the fuel (you don't want black smoke). If you have also added some H2 and additional O (that were the component parts of water) does the additional oxygen become selective and combine with a carbon atom instead of a hydrogen atom (which then has to go find an oxygen atom from the air)?

Since you have added more fuel and oxygen to the cylinder, you should get more power, but the additional power from the hydrogen and oxygen will be less than the power required to break the bond in water.

As to this comment
Quote
So adding additional oxygen to combustion is useless?   Doggone it, turbos are a waste of money.
. I don't think a turbo adds any horsepower to an engine, but it allows you to burn more fuel in the same displacement cylinder. Without increasing the fuel, there is no increase in power.

Quote
I believe he is trying to point out his friends set up does not use gasoline when it is running on the hydrogen generator.

The byproducts from the separation are hydrogen and oxygen, this is fed into the fuel injection system as the primary source of energy.

And yes it is amazing, almost magic to some of us Smiley

More amazing than you have even considered. He has invented the "PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE"
The world will bow down to this great inventor. Water in - water out plus unlimited horsepower.
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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2008, 10:38:20 AM »

Framers did this during the great depression. A friend of mine install a system on his car in the mid 70's, 68 Valiant with a slant 6 cylinder. Did it work .... well yes in a way ... it works best if it is hot outside with low humidity, the engine has to be up to operating temp.

He had a 5 gal water container on the floor on the pass side with a 1/4" plastic line running from the water container to the intake manifold and he had a petcock valve and a vacuum gauge. He regulated the flow of water with the petcock value, vacuum gauge and the engine temp gauge, a balancing act.

He could get as high as 15% water for some significant fuel savings ... but the down side is the loss of power, which was not that much of a problem with a light car but a heavy bus would be a different animal.
Ron

Ron, this approach is not water injection.  It is not about adding steam pressure to the cylinder like water injection was.  Electrolysis doesn't make steam or water vapor.  Water molecules are made up of two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen.  Electrolysis breaks the bonds between the atoms resulting in the release of hydrogen bubbles at one electrode and oxygen bubbles at the other.  In most uses, these are collected separately.  In the proposed system, they are collected together and piped to the air intake just inboard of the air filter.  This enriches the air flow with increased oxygen to support more combustion of the fuels and hydrogen which is itself combustible.

In the cylinder you have put air (about 16% O) and some fuel in quantities that will give complete combustion of the fuel (you don't want black smoke). If you have also added some H2 and additional O (that were the component parts of water) does the additional oxygen become selective and combine with a carbon atom instead of a hydrogen atom (which then has to go find an oxygen atom from the air)?

Since you have added more fuel and oxygen to the cylinder, you should get more power, but the additional power from the hydrogen and oxygen will be less than the power required to break the bond in water.

In a gasoline engine (which I know better than diesels), there is always unburned fuel, hence the need for catalytic converters these days to reduce hydrocarbon emissions.  Increasing the oxygen in the cylinder aids more complete combustion.  My RTS has a catalytic converter in the muffler, so I assume (don't "know") that this is to complete combustion of unburned fuel.

You raise an interesting point about the addition of hydrogen causing there to still be a shortage of oxygen.  Perhaps more would be achieved by just adding the oxygen.  Of course if it went large scale, the venting of all the stray hydrogen might be a problem, especially in high density traffic.

I believe he is trying to point out his friends set up does not use gasoline when it is running on the hydrogen generator.

The byproducts from the separation are hydrogen and oxygen, this is fed into the fuel injection system as the primary source of energy.

And yes it is amazing, almost magic to some of us

More amazing than you have even considered. He has invented the "PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE"
The world will bow down to this great inventor. Water in - water out plus unlimited horsepower.

Interesting point and amazing indeed.  But, Cody has seen it run.  I doubt it is "unlimited horsepower", and I imagine it functions on the differences of the energy required to crack the molecule via electrolysis vs. the energy released upon combustion.  All matter contains phenomenal quantities of energy, the trick is coaxing it to give up some of it.

I haven't seen any of this in person.  The use of the oxygen as a supplement to the air stream of a traditional combustion engine is the easiest for me to understand.  Beyond that though, I am open minded, intrigued and awaiting with great anticipation Cody's personal experience with it.
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