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Author Topic: HYDROGEN MPG BOOSTER  (Read 8504 times)
cody
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« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2008, 11:46:59 AM »

I don't recall anyone suggesting that the water exhausted from the engine could be recycled and reused as the power source for the engine, if it could, then it would be a perpetual motion machine.  The water has to be replaced just like gas has to be.  Bob's caravan is averaging 50 to 60 miles per gallon of water, on gas it averaged 22 to 24.  I don't expect people that arn't familier with hydrogen production to understand the process, it's much more involved and complex that most people realize, to read the many articles dedicated to this is one thing, to actually understand the process is another, I've been neck deep in the process for the last 10 years but only from a spectators standpoint. Bob is a retired engineer from Boeing, his knowledge of the process is probably second to none. He was instrumental in the developement of not only several forms of jet propulsion, he was also neck deep in the research and developement of the team responsible for several adaptations of ignition systems for not only solid fuel and liquid fuel propulsion systems for a lot of the rocketry that the military uses today.  For me, it's all greek, but for someone with that type of background, it's just another day in the lab.  I'm asking again for people to keep their minds open to what could be possible and not to discount an idea, just because it's new and different.  Just a few short years ago, the very thought that a person could launch a rocket at a target, then with a few key strokes on a computer, change the target, have the missle change direction, head off in a different direction and then dive down the exact ventilation shaft, that the guy at the computer 2,000 miles away wanted it to hit.  Think about it, anyone see that possiblility a few years ago?
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Stan
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« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2008, 12:01:50 PM »

I should have added in my last post that I sincerely hope that the hydrogen people are right. As much as anyone else, I would like to see the cost of energy go down.  "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".

That said, until a month ago I maintained that it was not feasible to cool a bus engine with electric fans. Then a bus owner on the BNO board explained how he could cool his 6V92 on a 5% grade in 90 degree ambient with one 1/2 HP electric fan. See the explanation of his system near the end of this thread by Mark Renner.

http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/11/20829.html?1205026599

Since it is generally accepted that a bus engine fans uses more than ten HP, just by changing to the 1/2 HP electric fan would give you a increase in fuel mileage with more than a 3% increase in HP to the wheels.
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Jeremy
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« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2008, 01:58:10 PM »

Just a few short years ago, the very thought that a person could launch a rocket at a target, then with a few key strokes on a computer, change the target, have the missle change direction, head off in a different direction and then dive down the exact ventilation shaft, that the guy at the computer 2,000 miles away wanted it to hit.  Think about it, anyone see that possiblility a few years ago?

The world would be a better place if that idea had remain a possibility no one belived could happen

Jeremy
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cody
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« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2008, 02:04:27 PM »

I agree, we didn't need that advancement, if it were up to me, when 2 countries had a disagreement, instead of going to war, the 2 leaders of the countries would get their wives into a wet T-shirt contest and the winner would be judged by me lol.  How about the internet for doing the impossible, I'm continually amazed by the fact that I can type a word into a keyboard and it will instantly appear on a screen on the other side of the world. Or my GPS system that can instantly tell me exactly where I am all the time, even when I'm hopelessly lost, who would have thought that was possible. lol
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HighTechRedneck
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« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2008, 02:30:51 PM »

Just a few short years ago, the very thought that a person could launch a rocket at a target, then with a few key strokes on a computer, change the target, have the missle change direction, head off in a different direction and then dive down the exact ventilation shaft, that the guy at the computer 2,000 miles away wanted it to hit.  Think about it, anyone see that possiblility a few years ago?

The world would be a better place if that idea had remain a possibility no one belived could happen

Jeremy

I'm afraid I would have to disagree.  Now they can pinpoint the exact target and adjust if it moves.  Minimal collateral damage.  Before, it required multiple bombs or even saturation bombing, resulting in substantial collateral damage.  In the Iraq war, people were upset when a "uninvolved" building next door to the actual target was significantly damaged.  Imagine if those same people were magically able to go back in time and antiseptically assess damage from WWII bombing of targets in the same way they do now. 

The world would be a better place if violence and war had never came into the human mind.  But contrary to what some people believe, violence and war have been around much longer than guns and bombs.

Somewhat going back to topic, some decades ago, nobody would have believed you could level a city with a small quantity of hydrogen.  Sadly, inovation proved they could.
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HighTechRedneck
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« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2008, 06:47:22 AM »

OK folks.  I got kind of tired of all the "Can't be done" posts. I am stubborn that way.  So I spent the last few days setting out to prove it using my 1986 Toyota 4x4 Pickup. It has the 22R gasoline engine in it.  It is light weight for a 4x4 pickup and has some extra space under the hood, so it makes a good candidate.

As some of you know, I am at the Choo Choo Express Bus Garage for a while getting some things done on my bus.  Here I have access to a couple very experienced mechanics, a couple fabricators and several busnuts that enjoy a challenge and are in their element when thinking out of the box.  Plus an almost unlimited supply of scrap metals, wire and just about everything you can imagine.

The fabricators built the electrolysis tank and water storage tank.  Mike, Jay and I built the electrolysis components using information I found for free on the internet.  We developed our own approach to routing it into the intake air that eliminates the need to dual lines for idle vs non idle.  We got it all fit in under the hood with some help from Joel.  I also decided we should go for the gold and try to reclaim the water vapor from the exhaust.  To test the idea we took a small AC evaporator and switched the AC lines over to it.  When in hydrogen mode, the exhaust is diverted through this evaporator and the condensation is sent back to the water supply tank.  HHO (I don't really like that term, but will use it for convenience) production, is controlled using a heavy duty rheostat attached to the throttle linkage.  A lever on the dash opens a flow valve for the HHO in to the intake air and then as you push it further, cuts off gasoline flow.

Now the big test.  A little apprehensive, I started it up on gasoline and let it warm up.  Then moved the lever over to hydrogen.  Well, it turns out it takes a little practice to move the lever at just the right speed (slowly) to make the switch over smoothly.  But IT DOES WORK!  So, we set out in a procession (just in case it didn't go well).  At first we stuck to neighborhood streets going slowly and gradually increasing speed.  No problems.  So We took it onto I75 and headed north to SR153, up to US 27, then South on 27 to I24 East back to the shop.  I was able to attain 65mph and had good throttle response.  All total the maiden voyage was about 25 miles and when we checked the water tank we had used slightly less than a pint of water.  So based on the water usage Cody has mentioned, I would say the water vapor reclamation is working.  200 MPG on water!  Not perpetual motion, but dang close!

I'll post pictures in a couple days.  But first we are documenting it all for patent filing.  As the pickup is my toad, you will get to see it in person as I will start attending rallies as soon as the current work on my bus is done.  (guess I better paint the pickup if I'm going to show it off, those who have seen it understand)

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Stan
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« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2008, 07:25:06 AM »

Since this is April 1st, I assume the next step will be to power a 500 kw generator with your 22R engine.
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2008, 09:28:21 AM »

I'm trying to figure out if that is an April Fools post as well.  If not, whoever offered to pay for the dyno run should pony up now and have this contraption put on the dyno and include full fuel meetering to determine the exact amount of hydrogen and gasoline consumed for a given horse power setting.  As they say, the proof is in the pudding.  Lets see the test results.
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Chaz
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« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2008, 11:06:19 AM »

Dallas got me earlier. April fools!! So I imagine High tech is blowing a bit of smoke.  Grin Grin Grin
  Chaz
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Don Fairchild
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« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2008, 03:01:57 PM »

Hydrogen as a fuel is the only fuel that is readily available in nature. There are no crops that need to be taken out of production or changed over to other processing to make fuel. This source grows naturally all over the world. It cleans the environment and it separates and releases oxygen and hydrogen in its growth cycle. When fed gases from the power plant smoke stacks and flues as well as diesel fired steam generators and heaters, it reduces the CO, HC, and NOx emissions. When this crop is at the end of itís life cycle it can then be pressed and the oil is used in some restaurants to cook our food. To find out more go on the web. And research hydrogen production you might find what I am talking about.

Don
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Len Silva
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« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2008, 03:24:49 PM »

Guys, Guys, don't you understand.  We are in a major drought in many parts of the country.  We cannot be wasting precious water just to be fueling our vehicles.

Len
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cody
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« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2008, 03:47:49 PM »

The fact that many parts of the country are in the midst of a drought is a very serious arguement, water is indeed scarse in many parts of the country, no single answer will bring us magically out of this mess.  The advent of biofuels has shown that our crop production is drastically low at this time,  partly because of the availability of water for the farmers.  Many farmers have diverted cropland to produce crops that are destined to be used in the biofuel industry, for the first time in history we have had to import wheat. At the same time our government in their infinite wisdom is continuing to pay farmers to not grow crops, somehow this logic escapes me.
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Chaz
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« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2008, 05:06:23 PM »

Cody,
  I am hoping Len was being facetious. I mean, come on, fuel doesn't rain down from the sky now, does it? The rain might be a little sparse in places, but they can sure have some of what I have been getting!! Fill up one of those tankers and ship it!
  Chaz
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« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2008, 06:17:40 PM »

Cody,
  I am hoping Len was being facetious. I mean, come on, fuel doesn't rain down from the sky now, does it? The rain might be a little sparse in places, but they can sure have some of what I have been getting!! Fill up one of those tankers and ship it!
  Chaz

There are indeed many places where fresh water shortage is a real problem.  I know the Midwest is getting flooded with rain right now, but at the same time, they still say Georgia will take years to overcome the water deficit they suffered due to continuing to poor their drinking water into the gulf to maintain some fish.  So now they are bent on trying to realign their border with Tennessee to get access to the Tennessee River.

One thing that always amazes me is that way back, Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries where drinking water was very sparse, paid U.S. companies to come set up massive desalinization plants to convert sea water to fresh water.  The equipment is expensive both initially and to maintain.  But drought is expensive too.  Perhaps it is time for the U.S. to build some of those plants and pipe the water inland to the farm country and other areas of need.  Hey, since we are reportedly going to cause the sea level to rise via global warming, then perhaps we can alleviate some of that by using it inland and for HHO production.  Grin

BTW, as most have already decided, my HHO success story was an April Fools tale.  But, I do hold an open mind for it based on some credible stories, including Cody's friend's experience with it.  It is easy to condemn an idea that is new and radical.  But many of our accepted inventions now, were once thought to be impossible based on conventional wisdom of the time.  I think it is a much better thing to support those trying to invent something radical.
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Chaz
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« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2008, 06:58:25 PM »

I'm with ya all the way around on that, High Tech, but "IF" we could get the "on demand hydro" to work, instead of trucking fuel, we could keep the truckers busy hauling water!  Grin It certainly wouldn't be as dangerous!!  Grin
  But really, if it were to happen that we could use water for fuel, do you honestly think it would cause a water shortage even in drought areas?? My guess is that would probably help things out as desalination would be a far cry better deal that refineries and oil rigs, etc. Even in places like "Hot-lanta". Companies would see a need for fresh water, on a "regular basis", and build pipelines, etc. as there is profit in it.  A once every 50 year drought is not going to get companies interested in water pipelines. But fuel would.
  And that's not even considering all the other benefits.
   Chaz
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Pix of my bus here: http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/Skulptor/Motor%20Coach/
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"Imagination is more important than knowledge". Albert Einstein
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