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Author Topic: Increasing Exhaust Efficiency -- ideas being sought  (Read 3697 times)
skipn
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« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2008, 01:44:39 PM »

HB of CJ

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ediehls0792_1/BusSection10.html

 Two thirds down on the left is a great picture of what he has.
 While you are at it gander at the rest of Brians project.....Probably the best
 documented repower I have seen in a very long time.



   Skip
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 01:56:12 PM by skipn » Logged
Sam 4106
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« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2008, 02:01:53 PM »

Hi Brian,
You have probably already thought of this,but I wonder if you could get a different turbo that would direct the exaust to the front of the engine (rear of the bus)? If I remember right, you already changed your turbo so that is probably too expensive an option. Or, would it be possible to build a bracket to remount the turbo (turn it upside down) so the exhaust comes out toward the front of the engine? Then if you could find a muffler with the inlet on the side and the outlet on the end you could reduce the number of turns a lot. Just some random thoughts.
Good luck, Sam 4106
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« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2008, 03:35:31 PM »

Brian, I have a new old stock Nelson muffler 5 in and 5 out on the other end. Its 24inches long and 24 wide. If you can use it I'll make you a smoking deal. After looking at your page, I would come off the turbo and 90 down and 90 again into a muffler. Then exhaust out the rear. This muffler is not straight thru.  Tom Y
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Tom Yaegle
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« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2008, 06:01:46 PM »

I am looking at the same issue with my Series 60.  My engine is set at 475 and I am pretty sure I am not getting that level of power.  The two areas I am looking at are the exhaust and air intake.  Don gave me some guidelines for the air, but I have not looked at exhaust  requirements.

When I was building my truck motorhome, I made a manometer to measure back pressure.  Very simple device to make and we are not talking about big pressure.  Easy to hook up with a truck, but not as easy to do with a bus with engine in back.  Guess I will have to talk the better half into riding in the back and marking the high and low levels when I hit it hard.

I currently have a 5 inch Aero and less bends than Brian.  I am not real happy with the lack of noise reduction with the Aero.  Sounds good some of the time (like coming into a rally with the jakes on Grin), but no good way to be a good citizen in residential areas.  It does not have a flow rating, but the folks peddling the unit talk in glowing terms about "free flow".  I will probably have it for sale in the near future.

I think it is Walker who has a 6 inch inlet/outlet muffler, but I don't think I can get it in.  I am now looking at using two smaller 5 inch mufflers.  I think I can get then in if I put them in a vertical position.

Concerning the air inlet, my tattletale suggests that my vacuum is kind of high even with a fairly clean air cleaner.  I am using the air cleaner that came with the engine, but it was a cowl unit so, had some ram affect.  The element has a pretty high rating, but it must not be enough.  Next week I plan to do a short drive with no air cleaner to make sure it is not some other restriction. 

I am looking for a smaller air cleaner to use on the driver side, coupled with the existing unit.  Have not had a chance to look around the wrecking yard to get ideas.  It has to be reasonably small to fit on the driver side because of the engine off set, and other issues.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2008, 07:00:50 PM »

Brian, I have a new old stock Nelson muffler 5 in and 5 out on the other end. Its 24inches long and 24 wide. If you can use it I'll make you a smoking deal. After looking at your page, I would come off the turbo and 90 down and 90 again into a muffler. Then exhaust out the rear. This muffler is not straight thru.  Tom Y

Wow, thanks for the kind offer Tom!  Could you tell me the part number on the muffler?  I can't make it out in the picture.
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« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2008, 07:16:25 PM »

I am looking at the same issue with my Series 60.  My engine is set at 475 and I am pretty sure I am not getting that level of power.  The two areas I am looking at are the exhaust and air intake.  Don gave me some guidelines for the air, but I have not looked at exhaust requirements.

.
.
.

I am looking for a smaller air cleaner to use on the driver side, coupled with the existing unit.  Have not had a chance to look around the wrecking yard to get ideas.  It has to be reasonably small to fit on the driver side because of the engine off set, and other issues.

Jim

The muffler problem is very real with our buses.  I'm still unsure how I want to go.  I really like the idea TomC presented about putting the muffler up by the transmission, but I really don't think it will work on my bus given how wide and low the AutoShift is.  Tom Y.'s muffler looks to be short enough to fit in the area where my current muffler is.  The real question is if it has the flow rating for the motor.

On the air filter I reused the air filter from the 6v92 that was originally in the bus.  I have as yet been unable to get any vacuum to show up on the flow restriction tell tale.  I think the bigger filter, compared to what was in the truck, is the difference.

In reply to Skip's message about intake.  The intake on the A3 series of buses was redesigned.  It has an 8" intake coming down from above the driver side radiator.  I think it flows plenty of air.  I am going to take apart all the pipes on the turbo outlet/intercooler side of the system and tweak them a bit.  I want to take and chamfer the inside edges of the pipe in a 45 degree angle to help the air flow stay as laminar as possible as it goes from joint to joint.  I think chamfering down the edges will help as the pipes have an 1/8" wall thickness.


Don and Sheila,
The 5050XL Aero muffler sounds like it might do the job, but it is 30" long.  I think it would be a tough fit due to having to get a 90 degree angle into the front and an exhaust tip off the back.  I also couldn't find any flow ratings for the muffler.  Have you used or heard this muffler?  I wonder how good of a job it actually does. 

Jim, is the Aero on your bus the same as the 5050XL?  If so, then it sounds like it doesn't do the job good enough.

Thanks for the ideas guys.  I'll research some more and see what I can figure out for this.
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« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2008, 07:32:16 PM »

Brian, It has Nelson 12C91.  I think the 91 is the year.  Tom Y
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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2008, 07:54:02 PM »

I thought Craig Shepard told me at the Minnesota mini-bus rally last year that a 2 stroke needed more intake air than a 4 stroke.  If that is true an air filter from a two stroke should provide plenty of intake air.

I remember commenting about the air fiter on either Brian Brown's bus or Craig's bus being awful big, but when we went and looked at the air filter on my Series 60 it was about the same size.
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« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2008, 03:39:01 AM »

Brian, we are somewhere in the Atlantic ocean on the way home from a cruise that Pat earned.  As a result, I do not have the specific information of the Aero muffler.  However, I am pretty sure they only make one 5 inch muffler.

I think it is too early to pronounce the muffler too restrictive. 

After I posted the last time, I finalized a plan to check both the air cleaner and muffler.  I am going to make a short run on the paved, steep road in front of our house without the air cleaner element to make sure the restriction is not in the plumbing (will use the tattle tale to measure).  At the same time, I plan to weld a bung in the exhaust and hook up a manometer to measure exhaust back pressure.  I think I can get that done early next week if the weather holds.  I will report back after I do the test.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2008, 04:37:54 AM »

If you have anything less than a 12V-71TA in the bus, then a single 5" exhaust system will be sufficient.  Even the new trucks with catalyst and particulate traps are just using a single 5" exhaust.  When the horsepower gets above 550, then dual exhaust are used.  Without the catalyst and particulate traps, a 5" exhaust will accommodate 600hp (in 4 strokes) easily in single configuration.  6" is hard to work with, hard to find, expensive and takes a lot more room.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2008, 08:07:28 AM »

Brian, It has Nelson 12C91.  I think the 91 is the year.  Tom Y

I've done a bunch of different Google and Ryder Fleet Products searches and can not find the Nelson 12C91 muffler.  Does anyone know where I can find the specs on this muffler?
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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2008, 08:08:51 AM »

If you have anything less than a 12V-71TA in the bus, then a single 5" exhaust system will be sufficient.  Even the new trucks with catalyst and particulate traps are just using a single 5" exhaust.  When the horsepower gets above 550, then dual exhaust are used.  Without the catalyst and particulate traps, a 5" exhaust will accommodate 600hp (in 4 strokes) easily in single configuration.  6" is hard to work with, hard to find, expensive and takes a lot more room.  Good Luck, TomC

You definitely would know about this TomC!  Although the idea of 6" pipe is nice .... you know ... "Bigger is Better"!!!  and the tim allen Tool Time Moto "More Power"! 

I think I'll stick with 5" pipe.   Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2008, 10:39:07 AM »

Brian, It has Nelson 12C91.  I think the 91 is the year.  Tom Y

Tom,
Do you happen to know what this came off or what it was intended for?  I've talked to Ryder Fleet Products and Nelson technical support and neither of them show the 12C91 as a valid part number.
-Brian
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« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2008, 07:15:26 PM »

Brian, Thats the only number on it. I got 2 of these when I bought the L10s. They were for Gilig buses with L10s. This is your goverment dollars at work. They must hold up well because they never changed them. The in side has a 5 inch pipe with about 1/4 inch holes and forms a cone with holes in it also. Hopes this helps.  Tom Y
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« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2008, 07:17:39 PM »

Brian, Heres what I think is the outlet.  Tom
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Tom Yaegle
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