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Author Topic: what have I found  (Read 2358 times)
Bob Gil
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« on: April 15, 2008, 01:09:27 AM »

what have I found in the engine compartment of my buss?

Kinda burn't Do I need to replace it or just do away with it?

« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 01:11:28 AM by Bob Gil » Logged

Fort Worth, Texas where GOD is so close you don't even need a phone!

1968 GM Bus of unknown model 6V53 engine (aftermarket) converted with house hold items.

Had small engine fire and had no 12 volt system at time of purchase. 
Coach is all 110 w 14KW diesel genrator
Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2008, 03:00:54 AM »

Hi Bob,

I'll take a stab at it!

It's a grease and rust descaler because it looks like steel wool on a brick.... Shocked

Nick-
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Dallas
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2008, 03:35:37 AM »

Bob,

It's the rear control panel for your bus.

The two switches are to select between front start and rear start and engine shutdown. The button is the starter button for the rear.

It also has the engine stop relay and some other stuff in it.

You should keep it.

Dallas
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buswarrior
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« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2008, 05:51:02 AM »

Yup, I'll throw my hat in with Dallas, sure does look like the rear controls.

You may decide whether you want the redundancy of rear controls or not, it is easier to work in the engine room without having to go up front to turn it on and off, or get an assistant to help.

You'll need to confirm how many of those relays are only for the rear controls, or are necessary for full operation.

Digital pictures make this game oh so much easier!!!

Thanks Bob!

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2008, 07:58:30 AM »

The large item with the fins is a voltage regulator for an alternator.
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Bob Gil
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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2008, 08:03:41 AM »

Ok I should keep it.  But then I have to figure out what was there and how it should be wired.  

I assume the switch is to change from front to rear controls?

Then the two buttons?
    1. For starter
    2. For kill
    3. solenoid that both starter buttons would control
    4. would there be two relays one for each starter button?
    5. what is the big think with the fins on it? (Alternator) 
If I go with the Leece Niville with internal regulator I guess I can do away with it?


Then there is the termail block that I think had the lights going to it I am not sure.

Am I on the right track?  Or am I thinking wrong?

I know there a ton of other wires for the sensors on the engine but i don't think they were in this area.  I will have to find them as I dig deeper.
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Fort Worth, Texas where GOD is so close you don't even need a phone!

1968 GM Bus of unknown model 6V53 engine (aftermarket) converted with house hold items.

Had small engine fire and had no 12 volt system at time of purchase. 
Coach is all 110 w 14KW diesel genrator
buswarrior
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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2008, 08:32:46 AM »

If it is the rear controls, the toggle switch will have three positions, with off in the middle, front run up, rear run down.

The two push buttons will be momentary contact, one to activate the starter, one to activate the emergency stop solenoid connected to the flap on the intake immediately ahead of the blower, if so equipped.

Of course, all bets are off if someone has been making modifications, or that this was intended to function differently than we suspect.

Might be better to read up on some GM/Detroit Diesel wiring diagrams and just start fresh, wiring it the way you would like, never mind how it was, and scavenge what you can from the left overs.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Bob Gil
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2008, 08:40:56 AM »

I guess I better find some GM/Detroit Diesel wiring diagrams to read up on and just start fresh.

I just need to figure out what was there to see if I need to replace what and go from there.  not much in the line of left overs, it was all burn't up pretty good.

About all there is to salvage is the metal panel it is all mounted in and I am thinking I might want to redo that so it will not be so easy for some one else to get in to.  Put it in a metal box with a cheap lock if nothing else.  I think I have an old money box that I can use.
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Fort Worth, Texas where GOD is so close you don't even need a phone!

1968 GM Bus of unknown model 6V53 engine (aftermarket) converted with house hold items.

Had small engine fire and had no 12 volt system at time of purchase. 
Coach is all 110 w 14KW diesel genrator
makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2008, 08:50:56 AM »

Bob, you can make the rewiring of your bus fairly easy or as difficult as you choose do it 1 wire at at a time don't cut a bundle of wires without knowing what they are for chase your wiring back to where it is not burned and replace with the same color even to your burned sensors tag them and use a good crimp tool not one of the cheap from auto parts or WM and life will be easier
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Bob Gil
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2008, 08:57:19 AM »

Wish I had a bundle of wires to cut.  Akk of mine have been burn't into and all I have is ends comeing from every where.  When I trace the bare wire to where there is insulation on it it is all melted together into one piece. 

This is going to be a chore.  I guess I will have to cut ut back to where the wires are not melted together and up a terminal block in and run new wires from there.  Putting power on each wire from the dash and then going back to the back and find it and conect it to the proper thing that i have the wire fro in the dash.

Sound like a long process, lots of trips to the front of the buss and back.  Then I need to figure out the wires on the sending units if i can locate them all.

Lots of fun!!!NOT
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Fort Worth, Texas where GOD is so close you don't even need a phone!

1968 GM Bus of unknown model 6V53 engine (aftermarket) converted with house hold items.

Had small engine fire and had no 12 volt system at time of purchase. 
Coach is all 110 w 14KW diesel genrator
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2008, 09:00:34 AM »

Bob-since your bus does not have electronics, it might be quicker to just completely rewire the bus (the bus part of running lights and engine controls) then to try to figure out what was done before.  I have found that many times the original bus wiring can be unnecessarily complicated for what you need for safe operation of the bus.  I personally just left the original wiring since everything worked, and still works to this day.  Rewiring with quality wiring that is a bit oversized will give you both peace of mind and knowing the wiring inside and out.  You can speed the process with circut tester and with another person switching the switches up and down to find each circuit.  Yes it will some time, but not as much as I think you're anticipating it to take. I bet a few days or a couple of weeks is all that will be needed.  Good Luck, TomC
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Bob Gil
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2008, 09:09:25 AM »

You are right if they had not converted the dash gauges to all digital.

Finding the turn signals, brake and clearnce were not too bad I was able to turn them on and go find the hot wires but the gauges I guess I will have to disconect them each one and trace and replace until I get them all in the correct place.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 09:11:17 AM by Bob Gil » Logged

Fort Worth, Texas where GOD is so close you don't even need a phone!

1968 GM Bus of unknown model 6V53 engine (aftermarket) converted with house hold items.

Had small engine fire and had no 12 volt system at time of purchase. 
Coach is all 110 w 14KW diesel genrator
luvrbus
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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2008, 09:29:10 AM »

bob I helped a friend rewire his Eagle that had burned wiring and we found out a 12 volt battery and a test light was the best tool we had by hooking a clip for the ground to the bus and clipping the hot to a wire and finding it on the other end with the test light on the dash good luck on this but it is not that hard once you develop a system and the price of copper wire is out of sight now    forgot to mention you need a inline fuse on the test lead in case you have a grounded wire it will blow the fuse
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 09:53:55 AM by luvrbus » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2008, 10:11:59 AM »

bob I helped a friend rewire his Eagle that had burned wiring and we found out a 12 volt battery and a test light was the best tool we had by hooking a clip for the ground to the bus and clipping the hot to a wire and finding it on the other end with the test light on the dash good luck on this but it is not that hard once you develop a system and the price of copper wire is out of sight now    forgot to mention you need a inline fuse on the test lead in case you have a grounded wire it will blow the fuse

Good idea but I prefer a sounding device (buzzer or "Sonarlert) to a light.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2008, 10:19:00 AM »

never thought about a buzzer Len we used what we had and most of the time it would just make something on the dash work anyway
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Stan
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« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2008, 11:52:58 AM »

Getting back to installing the rear control panel. There is no need to put it in a locked box. The standard wiring for a rear control panel has the voltage source coming from the master (key) switch on the dash. Unless that switch is turned on you can't start the bus from the rear. The worst thing that happens is someone turns the switch to the middle and then the bus won't start from the front.
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Bob Gil
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« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2008, 12:16:39 PM »

OK I have another thing that I have learned from this today.  i was wondering if it were standard on buses how many of them got stolen because of them.  that answers that question.

I have a buzzer that I can use but I am aftrid that I will damage the digital gauges if I don't disconet them when I put power to them.  I have been known to fassen test leads to the wires of a LED light and us that it lights up faster than the normal test bulb.
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Fort Worth, Texas where GOD is so close you don't even need a phone!

1968 GM Bus of unknown model 6V53 engine (aftermarket) converted with house hold items.

Had small engine fire and had no 12 volt system at time of purchase. 
Coach is all 110 w 14KW diesel genrator
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« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2008, 12:38:33 PM »

There are crimp-on terminals that have heat-shrink insulation as part of the terminal.  Just crimp and heat.  Makes a really tight fix.   No moisture incursion into the terminal to cause later 'gremlins' in your wiring. 
Do RTS' have a regulator mounted in the control box?   That seems a dumb place to install an air-cooled regulator?  Unless the box has air ducts for cooling? 
Rather than cut wires from their attachments, cut off all the remaining bundle insulation and leave the wires attached to there respective sensor or terminal.  Then clean back in the harnes to where undamaged harness is located and install a terminal block with a sufficient number of terminals to connect the engine and whatever (lights?) to the existing harness.  Then mark, route, and connect each lead as you go.  You can ID most wires by what they are connected to.
This may help avoid having 30 wires of unknown origin and having to sort out or trace each one. 
The above idea assumes that the engine wires are still connected...albeit a little crispy.  Wink
Another option would be to have someone cut an engine harness off of a similar coach?  You got an RTS salvage yard nearby?
Or let you carefully remove the rear chassis  harness.
Good luck, JR


   

 
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

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Dallas
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« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2008, 01:56:35 PM »

Bob, since you have what looks like a pretty simple system, I emailed you the wiring diagrams for a GMC PD4104 and a 1950 Flxible Visicoach.

I could also send you the wiring diagrams for some skoolies, but I'm not sure what year they are for or what make model they are.. I haven't looked at them for a couple of years.

One more thought, I have the maintenance manual for the PD4103 (GMC) which is a tad bit simpler than the PD4104, but that one will require me to actually do some work and may cost you.

Anyone have the wiring diagrams for Ward or Superior Bus bodies? I think it's possible that's what this unit may be. It doesn't really look like a Bluebird from what I've seen in the past.
I doubt that it's a Thomas, the siding doesn't look right for one of those.

Bob,
Just a thought... look in the drivers control box, (If it has one), under the drivers seat, outside on the drivers side. See if there is a Vin Number stamped into the frame rail. If not, look for the number on the right or left frame rail behind the front tire.

Good luck,

Dallas
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« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2008, 05:26:15 PM »

just me but I think things are getting over complicated here what with the digital dash and senders and all. the bus started life as something so if what it is cant be determined then we need to pick something as a base. the diagrams that Dallas sent you are a good base. is the coach 12 or 24 volt? when it was built it had no fancy electrical so if the 4104 or 5 or whatever is close then work from that and get the base systems back wired. lights, start, stop etc. Before it had digital gauges that is where the PO started from. when all that works we need to identify the brand of gauges and treat them as a seperate system. there is the possibility that there is still alot of old wiring from its bus days that did nothing and is now burnt and confusing the issue. there has to be a VIN somewhere or a something on the title. check with the DMV and see if you can do a title search. maybe that will turn up something or someone that can provide a better history on its origins.
just my rambling $.02
steve
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luvrbus
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« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2008, 05:42:31 PM »

this guy will  be allright once he get a system going to check the wiring probably the only original wiring is going to be the lights The bus sure looks like a Ward to me by the way the windshields look and probably had a 401 V6 GMC gas burner in it's first life and the digital gauges are not going to be a problem all I have installed in old cars were 2 wires plus a ground  but like you say he needs to find out what brand he has
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 05:57:06 PM by luvrbus » Logged
Bob Gil
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« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2008, 05:43:22 PM »

The man that did the last conversion told me that the bus was one of the buses that they used on military bases as a shuttle when it was new.  He did not know any more about the model than that saying it looked too much like a dolphin before he put the end caps on both ends. He said you can see them all the time in the old movies but I have not found one yet.

It was owned by a hockey team in Canada at one time and a singing group and a traveling salesman.  

When he got it he totally striped it out and redid every thing from floor to ceiling and redid every thing.  He had it insured for 68,000 when it caught fire and the insurance company got it.  

He said that it originally had a big V 6 gasser in it and the engine had been switched before he got it.  The bus was never a fast runner and was really slow on the hills.  If I am not mistaken he said it had been turned up to 2300 or 2400 rpms to give it a little better travel speed and help on the hills.

I will crawl around under it tomarrow if I can and look at the bottom of it and see if I can find any numbers.  As of now the only numbers I have on it are a VIN RG7780RD2080R but nobody could recioize it before when I posted it.

I am going to try to rewire it simple as possible.  I have found the wires to the rear stop turn and clearance and am narrowing them down as I go.  

Yes I have found there are some wire that don't go to any thing.  i have pulled about 30 foot of wire out that was not attached to any thing.  And about 15 foot of hdy air or other type hose out that was just hanging there not attached to any thing.  amazing what can hang under one of these buses for a long time.
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Fort Worth, Texas where GOD is so close you don't even need a phone!

1968 GM Bus of unknown model 6V53 engine (aftermarket) converted with house hold items.

Had small engine fire and had no 12 volt system at time of purchase. 
Coach is all 110 w 14KW diesel genrator
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« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2008, 05:55:56 PM »

not really suprised at what you find. in rebuilding boats both pleasure and race I often find old wires and hoses and cables that do nothing. I guess it is too much work to pull it out so they just shove it up somewhere. since you have a VIN as I suggested I would try the DMV and try to do a title search. if the number is good it should trace back each owner except the military as they may not have titled it if it was kept on base. that may at least get you some info. I have done title searches on cars before and traced back every owner and where the car had been. if you are in a smaller town with a DMV that is not usually busy they tend to be more helpful.
steve
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« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2008, 06:35:59 PM »

FWIW, while your are pulling wires, add a few "blank" wires between the dash and engine room.  You'll want'em for something.   Who knows what you may want to add to the electrical system.
If you don't have a backup cam, might want to consider pulling coax for the camera too.


JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
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