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Author Topic: Any reason not to use all 10 AWG wire in my conversion for DC?  (Read 4800 times)
belfert
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« on: June 07, 2006, 12:00:40 PM »

Is there any reason I should not just use all 10 AWG marine wire for the 12 volt and 24 volt in my conversion?  I know 10 AWG will be overkill for the 24 volt, but I have only like one 24 volt item besides the inverter.  (Yes, I know the inverter, equalizer and batteries need huge cables.)  I only want to buy size of wire if I can help it.

What about for the 110 volt circuits?  Would I be better off with jacketed marine cable or are seperate marine wires better?  I am thkning I can do the 110 volt in 12 AWG.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2006, 12:20:22 PM »

Brian,

No reason not to use 10 ga. As long as it's stranded it will be flexable enough for road travel. And, as long as all your circuits are fused or breakered your good!

The only down side is stripping all that 10ga wire! Sad

All your 120v lines can be 12 ga. except your A/C's, and if electric H2O, or electric stove, All 10ga.

You don't need tinned marine wire,[no salt] but I would use the jacketed stranded wire for lonjevity!!

Nick-

« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 12:25:44 PM by Nick Badame Refrig. Co. » Logged

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belfert
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2006, 01:02:23 PM »

Why bigger than 12 AWG for a rooftop A/C unit?  Carrier says to use a 20 amp breaker.

I don't really need tinned cable, but marine cable has much finer strands than THHN or similiar.  All the research I've done says a fine stranded wire like marine wire is best for a conversion.  Any suggestions for something less expensive than marine wire would be appreciated.

I looked at bus of a local busnut who used solid copper, but I think it would break eventually.  Although, many stick and staples use plain old romex for wiring.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2006, 01:10:13 PM »

We all have to do this our own way ...

The trick with solid copper wire is you have to secure it so it will not vibrate.  I've been using some solid copper wire in my bus for almost 4 years now and have read of others using solid romex for many decades without problems.  Again, the trick is to keep the wire from flexing and moving while going down the road so that the connections don't break.  I used bc cable in order to provide an additional level of personal comfort so that I had a greater chance of never piercing a wire with my screws, etc.
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belfert
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2006, 01:17:01 PM »

We all have to do this our own way ...

The trick with solid copper wire is you have to secure it so it will not vibrate.  I've been using some solid copper wire in my bus for almost 4 years now and have read of others using solid romex for many decades without problems.  Again, the trick is to keep the wire from flexing and moving while going down the road so that the connections don't break.  I used bc cable in order to provide an additional level of personal comfort so that I had a greater chance of never piercing a wire with my screws, etc.

How do you secure the wires adequately in the junction box?  I would think that would be where the wires would break.

I'm not against solid copper if I can be convinced it won't break.  I would think solid cable would cost a lot less than marine cable.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2006, 01:39:04 PM »

This has been beat to death for many years but I'm going to jump in anyway.

There is nothing wrong with using Type NM (Romex) or Type MC (Metal Clad or BX) They are both approved by the NEC for use in Recreational Vehicles.

If the cables are properly installed, secured within 6" of a box and clamped in the box, you will not have a problem.

Technically, the marine type stranded cable that many folks like to use, is not approved, as it does not have the UL label.  It is approved by the USCG and whatever other marine authorities are involved and is a fine product, but expensive and unnecessary.

As long as the cable is secure in the box, the device properly mounted in the box and the connections tight, there will be no relative vibration between the various parts to cause a problem.

You do need to use stranded wire when connecting vibrating machinery such as generators and motors.

My bus was wired over 25 years ago with Romex and I've NEVER had a problem with loose connections or wire fatigue.

Len Silva
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belfert
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2006, 01:47:05 PM »

[
Technically, the marine type stranded cable that many folks like to use, is not approved, as it does not have the UL label.  It is approved by the USCG and whatever other marine authorities are involved and is a fine product, but expensive and unnecessary.

I believe both brands of marine cable I am looking at are UL listed.

Okay, if I use regular NM or MC cable for 110 volt AC, what about 12 and 24 volt DC?  Stranded is pretty much standard there, but what type of stranded cable?  I'll probably run more Dc cable than AC./

Brian Elfert
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NCbob
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2006, 02:39:38 PM »

What with the price of copper going through the roof you might wish to order your wire/cable well in advance.  I'm with FF, I'm using all tinned Marine wire.  For the miniscule difference in price....it's forever.  I'm seeing in my old '68 model bus that the years have taken their toll on the original wiring harnesses and I'm replacing everything with tinned wire.

Here's the best buy I've found:

www.waytekwire.com

They're in MN but have GREAT prices...used 'em for years.  Get them on the 'net and request a catalog.

NCbob
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belfert
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2006, 02:50:38 PM »

Waytek Wire has reasonable prices, but the minimum order quantities can be a killer.  I may not need 500 feet of a particular wire.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2006, 02:54:59 PM »

Are you certain that Waytek wire is marine?

They sell mostly to the industrial market place and their wire is mostly stranded tinned copper with either 300 volt or 600 volt insulation and manufactured to UL-1019 specifications. Much of the marine wire is not neither UL listed or tin plated.
Richard


What with the price of copper going through the roof you might wish to order your wire/cable well in advance.  I'm with FF, I'm using all tinned Marine wire.  For the miniscule difference in price....it's forever.  I'm seeing in my old '68 model bus that the years have taken their toll on the original wiring harnesses and I'm replacing everything with tinned wire.

Here's the best buy I've found:

www.waytekwire.com

They're in MN but have GREAT prices...used 'em for years.  Get them on the 'net and request a catalog.

NCbob
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2006, 04:06:51 PM »

This has been beat to death for many years but I'm going to jump in anyway.



Len Silva


There is no shortage of information on the internet and in books if one just wants to read about these subjects. This is no substitute for a discussion with the people that we are used to dealing with and other new folks as well. While I find the search option invaluable, it pales in comparison to a actual conversation that we can interact with, ask questions, and maybe even add something, like a fresh perspective.

I  find it interesting that it is the subjects that have been "kicked to death" that get the most viewings. I also have noticed that this board is the most helpful to us new guys bringing up the same old stuff.

Thanks for all the help, Guys.

On alot of my existing cables I just tinned the exposed strands
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2006, 04:07:37 PM »

Brain,
   I buy most of my wire from Waytek. I rarely buy 500'.  I usually purchase 100' rolls of 14, 12, 10,  and 8 ga in almost every color they have available. I have also purchased their various trailer cable in 100' legnths. They also have a great selection on solderess crimp-on terminals at great prices.  If call and ask, they will tell you the minimum amount you have to order.  I called to order 25  6 ga X 3/8 eye terminals and was told the minimum order was 35, so I went ahead and ordered 35. Jack
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belfert
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2006, 04:24:16 PM »

Brain,
   I buy most of my wire from Waytek. I rarely buy 500'.  I usually purchase 100' rolls of 14, 12, 10,  and 8 ga in almost every color they have available. I have also purchased their various trailer cable in 100' legnths. They also have a great selection on solderess crimp-on terminals at great prices.  If call and ask, they will tell you the minimum amount you have to order.  I called to order 25  6 ga X 3/8 eye terminals and was told the minimum order was 35, so I went ahead and ordered 35. Jack

What wire are you buying from Waytek in 100' quantities?  The smallest quantity I have found on the website is 250' unless I am looking at the wrong stuff.  500' is a lot, but 250' isn't so bad.

I did confrm that the Waytek marine wire is UL listed.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2006, 04:44:41 PM »

Guys,

I agree that this gets beaten to death, but I was new to this bus thing a few years back and this is a good healthy discussion

worth repeating every now and then.

That said, MY opinion,

I havn't seen solid conducter used in anything but RV's (or Houses), which are built by RV manufacturers, who run the RVIA, which decides what is OK. NO CONFLICT OF INTEREST THERE

Stranded has been the standard in planes, boats, machinery, cars, motorcycles forever, Why?

Because its cheaper?  NO

Because it lasts without any special strapping etc... YES

None of those industries want to cut there costs to compete? I BET THEY DO

Hey for a few bucks more (in the big picture) you have a superior product.

Then again, its OK with the RVIA, maybe we should just get a superior Class "A" and forget this Bus stuff Grin

OK, I feel better, Thank you for indulging me. Wink

Cliff



« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 05:27:16 PM by FloridaCracker » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2006, 05:11:44 PM »

I have had good luck with this place, http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/ ,I don't know how the prices compare to waytek. They sure were alot better than the local places

Features:
* 104 Strands of finely stranded tinned copper conductor for corrosion prevention
* Color coded PVC insulation. Ideal for quick identification.
* Temperature rating: 105 deg C (Dry), 75 deg C (Wet)
* Voltage Rating: 600 V
* Resistant to: Acid, Alkalis, Abrasion, Flame, Gasoline, Oil, Ozone, Moisture, Fungus
* Applications: Internal wiring of electrical equipment, Internal wiring of panels and meters, Point-to-Point Wiring
* UL Listed

"Boat Cable" and specs are printed on the PVC insulation.

American Insulated Wire, Corp.

$17.00 100ft
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 05:19:11 PM by phil4501 » Logged
Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2006, 05:21:30 PM »

Hello Again Guy's,

I thought the reason that all of us convert busses is mostly because of the high qualty of construction of a bus!  Right or Wrong?  

And, is it true that busses will last way longer than any stick built motorhome?  [of course]

Than, Why would anyone want to install anything but the best they can afford in their bus?  This is something you can't be cheap with!!

If you are not thinking this way, than you may not understand the whole concept of why most of us convert busses!!

I'm not trying to affend anyone, thats not my intention! But, mabe some don't understand the quality construction that built into busses.

If you have ever owned a factory built motorhome, than you would appreciate  a bus more.

Nick Badame
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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2006, 05:43:01 PM »

I am a firm believer in boat and airplane wiring, I know it is great stuff but, I'm going to do my coach by the NEC.   
  It is the law in every state in the union and my coach may someday have to be inspected to get Ins./license.
I would hate to have to rewire it just to satisfy the whims of some electrical inspector. The two local state inspectors are both friends of mine but, they may not always be the inspectors.

Our only hope, if it comes to that, it our coaches will be grandfathered in.

If the rate of electrical fires is higher in conversions, than in factory built coaches, we may see it some day. Soon.

I have a friend, a guy I worked with for almost 40 yrs, that is on a NEC committee and we have discussed this possibility.

  Also, even though acceptable, it won't be wired with romex.

Ed.
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belfert
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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2006, 07:36:01 PM »

Skycraft's price is half that of Waytek and you only have to buy 100 feet instead of 500 feet.  They do only have limited colors.

Edit:  I found other colors of marine wire on Ebay from Skycraft Surplus.  The price is $5 a roll more and the shipping seems steep.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2006, 08:02:45 PM »

They have other colors when you call to order. They also have nice 4-0 cable in red and black. They don't update the site often but they have alot more than what they show on the web page.
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« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2006, 08:13:10 PM »

Why bigger than 12 AWG for a rooftop A/C unit?  Carrier says to use a 20 amp breaker.

I don't really need tinned cable, but marine cable has much finer strands than THHN or similiar.  All the research I've done says a fine stranded wire like marine wire is best for a conversion.  Any suggestions for something less expensive than marine wire would be appreciated.

I looked at bus of a local busnut who used solid copper, but I think it would break eventually.  Although, many stick and staples use plain old romex for wiring.

Brian Elfert


Hi;   You are right,  the marine cable is great, but is overkill for bus conversion.  I used 10ga THHN, and am happy with
       it.  You are also right concerning romex,  it will probably fail.  May take a few years,  but it will fail.
       When you wire your inverter,  I would recommend 2/0 welding cable.  It is also flexable and you will find it has
       fine strands.  The fine strands can carry more current. The current capabalities can bu useful when used
       between inverter and batteries.   Good luck.
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belfert
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« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2006, 08:30:05 PM »

II have a friend, a guy I worked with for almost 40 yrs, that is on a NEC committee and we have discussed this possibility.

  Also, even though acceptable, it won't be wired with romex.

What will you use that meets NEC that is not romex?

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2006, 09:02:12 PM »

A couple years back when lots of us were beating this wire thing up in a fairly serious fashion on BNO, I decided to do a test just for grins.

I made a jig that held a piece of wire and wiggled it... granted quite a lot... and then I counted how many wiggles it took to kill various types of wire.
It was a completely non-scientific test compared to how scientific one could probably get, but it illustrated the main point, that regardless if solid wire will work, it sucks as a choice for RV's when more robust wire types are readily available.

Here's a copy of the post: (Note, fast Fred sent me some boat wire to test and it arrived after I'd done it.  I tested it later on and it performed about as well as the UL1015 wire I tried)  Anyway:

..........

Masochist that I am, I went down to my machine shop this morning, and set my milling machine up with a 1.5" stroke on the quill.
I then took a piece of #14 THHN solid wire, chucked it up in a drill chuck and the mill vice, and by moving the the quill handle up and down repeatedly, started bending the wire by an exact amount, over and over to see how many bends it took to fail the wire.
IT TOOK 11 BENDS on the SOLID THHN and it broke. I tried it again, and the second time, 11. Quite consistant!!
Then I put an ever-so tiny nick in the middle of a third piece, to simulate a sloppy strip job, and tried again.
This time it failed in 7 bends, not surprisingly right at the nick.
................
NEXT, 14 ga STRANDED THHN (14 strands)
This wire took only 12 bends and the first strand failed. At 60 bends, more than half had falied, and the whole thing broke at 98 bends.
............
OK, now for some UL1015 stranded (42 strands)

Two strands failed at 110 bends.
By 300 bends there a total of four failures
Total failure finally occured at 460 bends
..............
FINALLY, Contractors cord:
For my last test, I found the CHEAPEST 14 ga contractors cord I could lay my hands on (like a $9.99/100' special at Home depot, that is now 10 years old and well used), and it had 28 strands. I stuck it in the gauntlet, and by 500 bends, not one strand had broken yet. I gave up. I also got so "in to it" that I forgot to take photos of it.

My arm is very sore now, thank you.
...........................
Here's the photo so you can see for yourself:
http://www.heartmagic.com/00WIREstory.JPG

So here are my conclusions, no longer an "opinion"...
(1) IF you tie everything down and there are absolutely NO vibration or resonant points at ANY of your wiring terminations, you can probably use THHN wire of either type and get away with it. But "getting away with it" is exactly what you'll be doing...
(2) In an indentical installation, solid THHN will fail a lot earlier than stranded THHN.
(3) ANY USE of THHN will fail a LOT earlier than an installation that uses good quality stranded wire.
(4) The "Contractor's cord arguement" can now be reduced to "quality of insulation", and I won't go there....
(5) I'm glad I used UL 1015 wire in my bus
(6) It will all fail eventually....
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« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2006, 09:17:58 PM »

Gary,

Thanks for sharing the results from your testing.

It confirms what I have always believed.


Cliff

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« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2006, 09:52:00 PM »

my two cents for whatever.  I wired my Crown around twenty years ago with solid copper purchased from home depot and secured it cottectly. Everything still works.  Wired my MC8 with the same stuff, except from the generator to the main control panel, I expect when I finally kick the bucket every thing will still be working, but I won't Cheesy
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 10:08:43 PM by BJ » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2006, 04:40:52 AM »

     Waytek catalog # 212, page 4, top listing: Automotive GPT Primary Wire.  Gauges 18 throug 8 are available in 100', 250, 500, 1000, and some gauges availble in even larger rolls.
    I had forgotten about SkyCraft, they are another great source of wire. If you are ever in the Orlando, FL area, by all means stop by there store. But plan to be there for several hours, there is much to see.  Jack
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belfert
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2006, 10:30:47 AM »

I think I'm just going to use marine wire from Skycraft.  It is inexpensive compared to Waytek and others.

How do I pigtail in the electrical boxes for 110 volt AC?  I assume I would not want to use wire nuts in a bus as they may work loose.

I wasn't meaning to restart the stranded/solid debate again here.  I already read dozens of those debate messages over on BNO.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2006, 01:05:25 PM »

Good quality crimp on connectors will do the best.

THIS IS AN OPINION ONLY

Some people say to solder etc.

I would just crimp but be sure to get good quality connectors.

Melbo
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« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2006, 01:12:01 PM »

my bus has standard romex been in there for 19 yrs never ever had a problem of anykind.
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belfert
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« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2006, 03:02:36 PM »

Good quality crimp on connectors will do the best.

THIS IS AN OPINION ONLY

Some people say to solder etc.

I would just crimp but be sure to get good quality connectors.

Are there crimp connecters that can handle three wires for the pig tail? 

Soldering connections is just as bad as solid wire.  The joint will vibrate and eventually fail.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2006, 03:28:46 PM »

Yes Brian,

Wytek or SkyCraft sells all sizes of Crimp terminals!

Nick-
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« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2006, 04:17:43 PM »

Brian,

You can use twist on, but do it this way.

Twist all the wires together first with your nines.

I see work all the time where the wires are just put next to each other and then the wire nut twisted on. NO! NO!

Then put the wire nuts on. snugged tight with nines again.

Next put on electrical tape to cover part of wire nut and wire.

They will not back off or get loose.

You will have to trust me on this.

I take pictures of every panel, junction, wire in the 16 facilities that I cover with an infrared camera twice a year looking for hot

spots on any electrical device and this works.

FYI-You should solder any wire (stranded) that is secured or goes behind a screw for connection.

Cliff
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« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2006, 05:15:11 AM »


FYI-You should solder any wire (stranded) that is secured or goes behind a screw for connection.


Easier to just crimp on a fork (if screw cannot be removed) or ring (if screw can be removed) terminal to the wire.
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