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Author Topic: Check my rebuild cost 8V92T  (Read 7085 times)
basil
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« on: May 06, 2008, 02:11:30 PM »

I just got the bill for an 8V92 inframe rebuild, and I would appreciate anyone's opinion on whether the cost is reasonable:

Inframe Labor $5,720
Inframe Kit $2,778
2 Rebuilt Heads $1,884
Rebuilt Turbo $1,187
8 Injectors $515
8 Connecting Rods $365
8 Liner Inserts $57
Rebuilt Blower $450
Rebuilt Governor $296
Rebuilt Water Pump $160
Air filter Housing $216
Other parts and supplies $1,600

Total $15,228

This was done on the west coast, so a high labor area.  However, the parts cost also seems high to me.  Any opinions from someone that has done this before?
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H3Jim
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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2008, 02:16:28 PM »

Can you share information on who the shop was that did it for you?
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Jim Stewart
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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2008, 02:17:05 PM »

No first hand experience w/ Detroit engines - just 3208 and dt466 -  but  OUCH. It seems to me I read somewhere in the past about in frame rebuilds being "frowned upon". I'm sure  some more knowledgeable folks than myself will chime in.
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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2008, 02:45:18 PM »

Basil, was that with aftermarket parts or Detroit Diesel parts I did mine 8v92 last year and had $10,000 in parts with a new crankshaft the crankshaft was over $4000.00.The blower ,turbo and heads seems high to me my blower was $292.00  the turbo was $780.00 and the heads $1180.00 and all of my parts were from Detroit.I don't know what the shop rate was but at a $125.00 per hour that is 46 hrs
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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2008, 03:45:08 PM »

Seems about right to me.  8V-92TA are one of the most expensive to overhaul.  With the NTC350 small cam Cummins being one of the cheapest.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2008, 03:56:16 PM »

$15k to rebuild an 8-92 doesn't seem out of line to me, more so if it was done in a Detroit shop but pardon me for asking, what difference does it make now?  Presumably by now the work is done so the cost shouldn't be any surprise to you.  You did ask for an estimate up front, right?  After the work is done is a little late to discuss the bill, IMHO.
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« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2008, 04:19:32 PM »

Just curious, did you get an estimate beforehand and what was it?
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« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2008, 05:00:02 PM »

I've had my 8V92TA in-framed twice, and both times it was right around that amount.  That's with an independent shop -- I would expect it to be a bit higher at a distributor like S&S, Pacific, Valley, or Williams.

FWIW.

-Sean
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Blacksheep
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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2008, 05:07:33 PM »

Just curious, wouldn't it have been cheaper by about 9K to just pull the motor? I mean it surely couldn't cost near that to pull it could it?
BS
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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2008, 05:27:50 PM »

Blacksheep, how would it be 9 grand cheaper to remove the engine to overhaul it just curious
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basil
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« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2008, 05:29:33 PM »

The estimate ahead of time was $12k , assuming no new heads, which were close to $2000, so from that perspective it seems in range.

I thought things like rods, liners, inserts etc all came in the rebuild kit, so I was surprised to see those on the bill.  The rest of the part costs also looked high, which luvrbus confirms.

Shop is a Bay Cities Diesel in Milpitas, CA, a DD shop and the parts are DD.

I am asking because I have not paid the bill yet, so wanted to check whether it looked reasonable.

One reason I picked them is they promised to dyno the motor.  It was built with 90 injectors so I am expecting to see 435hp peak with some loss for the transmission and linkage to the wheels.  I am assuming 15% loss like in a car, but would be interested to know if folks think the loss would be different in a bus drivetrain.
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Sean
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« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2008, 05:52:29 PM »

Basil, this sounds completely legit to me, especially for Milpitas labor.  Likely half again that amount up at S&S in Oakland.

The line-items are a bit wacky -- eight liners are more than $57.  Usually, each cylinder comes as a "kit" with piston, rings, liner, and connecting rod all pre-assembled.  But the total seems right.

My in-frames were done in LA, with similar labor rates.  Things are cheaper by a fair amount in, for example, the rural midwest.

I'm not sure what the comment about pulling the motor meant.  In-frame is almost always cheaper than pulling, if you don't need the crank seals and camshafts done.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2008, 06:00:12 PM »

In frame kits do not include connecting rods, but do include liners, pistons, rings, bearings, thrust washers and gaskets. The "liner inserts" they refer to are the rings that fit under the lip of the liner where it sits in the block.

The charge I would question is the "other parts and supplies" for $1600.  I'd want to know what was included in that. The rest of the parts do seem high, but you'll pay max price at a DD dealer.
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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2008, 06:05:10 PM »

basil the shop looks to me like they used aftermarket parts and had a 35% markup.Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with some of the aftermarket parts Clevite make DD parts that are better than OEM parts they have a 2 year warranty compared to DD 1 year. 

At Stewart and Stevenson we offered aftermarket and OEM parts with no markup on parts what you paid for them at the parts counter was what you where charged my point is you do not save a lot of money at a independent shop after they mark up their parts, but the labor rate will be little cheaper.One thing I would question him on is the price of the heads
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Blacksheep
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« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2008, 06:24:42 PM »

They are charging 5720 for in frame labor. What's the labor if the motor was taken out? Then they charge 2700 for an in-frame kit where as out of the frame should be different?  Then on the same bill they charge separately for individual items. Doesn't make much sense to me. Now you mention a dyno run. Is that included in the overall price? It's not listed. Could it be hidden amongst the parts somewhere?
I was told you could BUY a rebuilt series 60 for about 18-20K. Your price is not far from that and before I would spend that for a rebuild on a 8V, I think I would go the re-power route! JMHO

BS
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« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2008, 07:26:37 PM »

For what it's worth, I just finished up a contract with a company here on the east coast to perform a complete rebuild on a 8V92 series in one of our USAF fire trucks.  Our mechanics took the engine out of the firetruck.  Cost for the complete rebuild including the turbo's and injection pump, was just over 18K. The company picked up and delivered to our door.  So I would say you got a fair price.  We are mandated to procure at least three bids on any repairs over $2500.00.  The highest was $23.2 K
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« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2008, 07:36:28 PM »

How do you in frame a motor when it is in a bus anyhow?  Every shop I've talked to has said the motor has to come out to do the rear main seal or any sort of rebuild beyond new injectors.  Did they do all the work through the hatch in the floor?

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Sean
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« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2008, 07:42:37 PM »

... What's the labor if the motor was taken out?
...
I was told you could BUY a rebuilt series 60 for about 18-20K. Your price is not far from that and before I would spend that for a rebuild on a 8V, I think I would go the re-power route! JMHO


When we dirted out our motor the first time, I priced this all out, rebuilt vs. in-frame.

The "rebuilt" price you quote is with a core.  If you trade in an 8V92 for an S60, there's an upcharge.

Detroit quoted me 18K for a Reliabilt 8V92.  When I looked at what it would cost to pull the old motor, move all the accessories, and reinstall the rebuilt, it would have come to well over $30,000.

Repowering to a different motor entirely would have been more still, since we'd be looking at redoing the whole chassis harness, in an already-completed conversion.

I think you're very mistaken if you think a "re-power" to a completely fresh engine of a different type can be had for even as little as twice what Basil paid for his in-frame.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong.  Tell me where to go to get a rebuilt S60 retrofitted into my bus for, say, $20K and I will be there next week.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2008, 07:53:17 PM »

How do you in frame a motor when it is in a bus anyhow?  Every shop I've talked to has said the motor has to come out to do the rear main seal or any sort of rebuild beyond new injectors.  Did they do all the work through the hatch in the floor?

My 8V92 has been in-framed twice.  They did all the work through the rear access.  Tore it down to the block, and it got 8 cylinders, both heads, injectors, turbo, etc. all through the back.  Main bearings are done from the bottom with the pan off.  They didn't even remove the access door or the bumper.  I've got a few dozen photos of mechanics squeezed inside the engine bay.

As I wrote earlier, you can't do the crank or crank seals with the motor still in the bus.  Those are not considered part of an "in-frame" -- that's an out-of-frame rebuild.

Conventional wisdom on the 92 series is you in-frame around 250k and maybe 500k, out of frame at 500k or 750k (if you in-framed at 500), and the cycle repeats.

-Sean
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« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2008, 08:23:56 PM »

That shop was recommended to me by a bus tour and charter company in San Jose.  I think that their shop rate was about $125/hour.  They looked at what I needed and gave an estimate.  They seemed to know what they were doing and to be reasonable.  I ended up having someone else do the work though.
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« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2008, 03:21:25 AM »

Price sounds about right!  Jasper did my rebuild and dyno for  19K, plus I bought a newer style block (cooling passages are larger).  I watched a so called dyno at a certified DD dealer as it sat on the floor in their shop and was run in and not on a dyno!  Becareful what you pay for when the company say's dyno......it might must be a run in! Check out their dyno before you sign on the dotted line. 
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« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2008, 07:19:13 AM »

That shop was recommended to me by a bus tour and charter company in San Jose.


Was that Royal Coach, by any chance?

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2008, 12:50:28 PM »

Sean,
     I believe it was Royal, but I don't remember well enough to be sure.  I was calling around quite a bit.
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« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2008, 02:09:28 PM »

Basil,

Saw your Eagle there and was amazed to see the condiiton of your coach!  Couldn't see any typical Eagle rust!!!  I don't know much about Eagles, except looking for rust.  I see your coach is sitting outside and Martin said it was going to be dynoed.  Mine is still there, and I will be picking it up soon.  It has taken them a long time to do my coach, but I have found them to be a good group, and I was not in a hurry for the work, so we agreed for them to work on it when they had time.  They have the advantage of a machine shop there.  I saw some of the damage to your engine and it looked pretty bad to me.  I have found all of their employees to be very thorough and they keep the shop clean.  They also have been reasonable with me.  I am sure Martin would be willing to discuss pricing with you, if you have questions.  I have never worked on one of these large bus engines, but just experience with automobile engines tells me this DD work is tedious work.  So at least you know that one of our group here has a coach in there too.  Let me know if you want to go down there together and talk to them, or just call me (408) 307-1593 if you want to talk.  I don't know if I would be of any help.  But I have established a good working realtionship with them over the past two plus years.  Bill Thomas 
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basil
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« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2008, 02:59:23 PM »

Yes, they seem to have been good so far, except it took a good 4 months from start to finish.  One reason I picked them is they said they would dyno it when completed.  It seems they have a new dyno that is not working properly, so I have been waiting a while for them to get me the torque curve before I pay the bill.  It has been over there twice already but the data comes out silly...250hp with 2500lbs of torque, both completely off, and incongruent. 

I don't want to beat them up on price...just wanted to check that pricing was fair.  We definitely need people willing to work on our coaches.

It is a great eagle 15, but I have since bought another one that is 45 feet that I am going to spend my conversion time on, so I am not sure what to do with the 40 footer.  With the rebuilt engine it is now mostly mechanically new.  It could be a good burning man bus.  I need to find a group that wants to weld a diesel-fire breathing dragon on top or some such thing.
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« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2008, 03:42:22 PM »

Many believe that the only engine to replace a 2 stroker with is the Detroit Series 60.  In my opinion, that would be a very difficult exchange since the physical size of the Series 60 is very large compared to a 8V-92TA.  I think a better engine is the Cummins L10/M11/ISM (all the same externally) ranging from 270hp all the way up to 500hp.  It weighs about 200lb less then the 8V-92TA and best of all you can find them in old trash trucks.  If you can find a trash truck with the ISM and Allison 4000 series transmission (most used these) then just buy the whole truck and you'll have everything for a complete engine/transmissin swap.  Better to find a trash truck that has been crashed or that they have taken the box off the back.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2008, 11:57:35 AM »

Tom,  What is he going to get by doing this?  Less weight? 200lbs.?  Or better fuel mileage?  1 or 2 mpg,?  Or more power?  Bill T.
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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2008, 12:07:25 PM »

Basil,  I wasn't suggesting that we try and get the price down.  As you said, it is nice to have a shop that is willing to work on these coaches and have what it takes to deal with big engines and transmissions etc.  Having seen your engine when they tore the head off, I knew it would be expensive.  The question I have is how the heck did this happen?  I am interested in all the work they do there and have been amazed at some of the units that come in.  I just thought that we could meet down there and if nothing else, I would like to see your coach and how it runs.  I thought mine would be ready today, but Martin is not there, so it looks like next week.  Bill
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basil
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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2008, 03:51:32 PM »

Same for me.  Numa says it will be finished next week.  I am out of town until Friday, but I'd love to meet you down there then, or elsewhere if it doesn't work out.

I had put a 12v belt drive alternator on my motor a while ago, so I took the opportunity of the rebuild to change my 50DN to 24 volts for house charging.  Bay Cities couldn't do it, but Ted up at Coach Maintenance switched it and rebuilt it.  The Bay Cities guys are trying to get that hooked up for me now, so it might go past next week.

I'll let you know.

The only other bay area bus nut I know is Sean, and he is rarely here.

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Sean
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« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2008, 04:29:00 PM »

The only other bay area bus nut I know is Sean, and he is rarely here.


And even when I'm there, I'm not really, as they say, "all there"  Wink

-Sean
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« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2008, 11:19:37 PM »

Basil,

That heat wave last week had me really hauling here for a few days.  One unit alone almost 100 lbs of refrigerant!!  Told them that if it leaks again, which it will, they better be ready to replace it.  A fifty tonner that is almost as big as my coach!  26 years old, and she has been run too long.  Condenser is fatigued and the inlet guide vane system is all worn out.  Fans by this time are ready to come apart and who knows how long the compressors can last after so many years.  At least two were replaced out of four probably 10 years ago.  No hose bib on the roof for maintenance!  I think I need to retire from this job!  Had to drag hose 200 feet to get to two condensers last week and it doesn't do any good to ask again for a hose bib on the roof!  Code now requires it, but they get away without providing a hose bib on new work anyway unless the inspector really does his job!

We have gone from Global Cooling for months to Global Warming right now.  I hope this week is cooler.  Anyway, call me on my cell above when you are going down there, and I will swing by.  If they get mine all done and it runs ok, and we come up with a fair price, I am ready to get those guys all togther in a picture around the rear of the coach showing the engine which looks pretty sharp now with new paint and Craig's polished aluminum rocker cover!! 

Bill T. 
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