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Author Topic: hydrogen generator?  (Read 4748 times)
ttomas
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« on: May 10, 2008, 03:50:44 PM »

Anybody have any experience with a hydrogen generator added to a diesel, or knowledge about it?  thanks  Tomas
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captain ron
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2008, 05:32:07 PM »

Check the "Green Bus" thread at the top of the page.

There's a hydrogen generator being built here next week but for a gas truck.
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Jerry32
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2008, 09:05:13 PM »

For some info on water fuel cells google up joe water fuel cell and see 137 minutes of video on experiments with differant cells and cars operating on them . very interesting.. Jerry
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2008, 09:55:09 PM »

At Los Angeles Freightliner in Whittier, Ca., we are in the process of building a hydrogen fuel cell powered truck.  Will let you know how it turns out.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2008, 01:44:46 PM »

Tom
Will you be using hydrogen stored in a tank just like gas?  I think the question relates to using an on demand hydrogen generator in conjunction with a current fuel system.  Or I could just be lost in place again Smiley

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Songman
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« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2008, 02:06:57 PM »

Don and I were at a CARB meeting in Riverside a couple of months ago and started talking to an engineer who was also there. He was pointing out the flaws in the regulations that CARB is putting on everyone. He said that he was working on developing a hydrogen system that could run a diesel engine. Not in conjunction with the diesel, but totally running it. I offered to let him use my Isuzu generator that is sitting idle now for his testing. So far, never heard anything back from him though.
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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2008, 06:49:50 PM »

One problem with hydrogen that nobody mentions much, is that if you have to carry all your fuel, hydrogen takes up something like 18 times more space than diesel for equivalent fuel energy.  I don't know about you, but I like my 1500 mile cruise range.  and to have to stop every 100 miles in the bus to fuel up, or give up all my bay space does not really do it for me.
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« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2008, 07:52:00 PM »

They are going to carry water and make the hydrogen in place for the generator. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2008, 08:27:47 PM »

if you notice, the Hydrogen Fuel cell buses all have quite large tanks mounted on the roof
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HB of CJ
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2008, 01:47:41 PM »

Hey Song man, is/was your Isuzu diesel APU idling sitting or it is sitting idle?  He he he.  This whole idea of hydrogen generation now has my very limited attention.  Seems too good to be true....kinda like getting something for nothing.  Seems to me the energy required to liberate the hydrogen would exceed any additional energy released burning it?  But then again....I dunno.  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2008, 02:28:00 PM »

hydrodgen is not really an energy source, but rather an energy delivery system.  We don't find hydrogen just laying around, nor can we pump it out of the ground.  On the scale of vehicle usage, we'd have to make it by adding energy to water.  Best is to do this on site, rather than trucking it.  It would take 18 truckloads to be the equavalent of one truckload of conventional fuel. 

So there are inefficiencies in createing the hydrogen and then again in burning it.  Maybe one reason why straight electric maybe more efficient.

Its nice because at the vehicle, its clean burning, but you have to look at the entire system, infrastructure to evaluate if its the right move or not.  If you are making electricity to make the hydrogen by burning coal, you are probably making more pollution than doing it the old fashioned way.  If you use solar to create electricity to make hydrodgen,then you're getting somewhere.
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cody
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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2008, 03:13:58 PM »

Hydrogen on demand is probably going to be the fuel of choice, it's relatively easy to produce and much safer than on onboard fuel cell.
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Songman
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« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2008, 03:20:49 PM »

HB, I'd love to hear it idle! It has been sitting idle for way too long... Some idling would be nice!

I don't pretend to understand the processes of hydrogen. But the guy we were talking to is an engineer and he seems to think there is something great that can be done. With fuel prices heading skyward, I am open to anything!
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« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2008, 05:44:27 PM »

the hydrogen generator breaks down water into hydrogen and oxygen.The mixture is called browns gas. It is injected into the aircleaner. The engine draws as much air as usual, but now it has brown gas mixed with the air. This mixture burns more efficiently and gives the engine more power, cleaner exhaust,cleaner oil and about 20%-30% increase in fuel mileage in semi trucks.There are a lot of different technologies out there on how to generate the hydrogen,different types of fuel cells. A lot of them use a caustic solution , baking soda, potassium, lye and others. I prefer the use of mineral water and dis telled water solution. When the gas flows into your engine,some water vapor will be present and will be burned in the combustion chamber.  I don't want any lye inside my engine. I have researched this topic and will be installing a system on my pickup truck soon. The bus will come later as the fuel prices are killing me on the pickup right now and I expect to get at least a 50% increase in fuel mileage on it.
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« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2008, 06:19:43 PM »

Is this the device you are talking about?

http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com/?hop=webdirect2
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« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2008, 08:58:32 PM »

Be careful in buying this stuff, schemes like these have come up before when gas goes up.  I am not saying they are all schemes, but some them are and that's a fact, Jack.

Ray D
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« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2008, 11:22:12 PM »

Be careful in buying this stuff

No need to be careful - just don't fall for yet another con that relies on a seemingly inexhaustible supply of new suckers too stupid or too greedy to take any notice of the lessons that history teaches us.Don't take any notice of the sucker that did fall for it and then seeks to make himself feel less stupid by getting others involved.

Of all the tens of thousands of fuel-savers that have been promoted over the last 100 years, can anyone point to any that have been proven and are in use in any production car?
Where exactly are all these 20% increases in power or 20% reduction in fuel use or 20% reduction in emissions that are promised.

Just get used to paying the higher costs of fuel,use less fuel, or sell the bus and buy a pushbike

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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2008, 07:04:30 AM »

Just because you have been trained by the oil companys not to look for alternatives dont assume that us that do are suckers!!!!! That is rather insulting!!!!
 I purchased from the back of Science$Mechanics a special plate to insert in my carb and increased my fuel milage by %50!!! I then ordered the magnets that alter the molecular structure of gas and increased my milage by a whopping %40. I added Tri point Platinum plugs and increased my milage by another 25%!!! The problem started when I bought Dr Phils Hi Tech Kryptonite gas pills which were suppose to add 20% to my fuel milage. My Gas tank started overflowing!!! Grin
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« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2008, 09:04:50 AM »

There was recent Mythbusters episode where they tested several of these "gas mileage boosters".  If I remember correctly, the results were:

1. Magnets - Bogus
2. Acetone - Bogus
3. Hydrogen - Mixed -- The Brown's gas concept (on demand) showed viability in theory (ie. the reaction occurred and generated the HHO) however, it could not generate the HHO in enough volume to make a noticeable difference in the MPG of the vehicle.  They did, however, pump hydrogen directly into the carburetor (from a tank of compressed gas) and it worked, right up until the uncontrolled "bang" because there was no means of flow control on the hydrogen.  So, the concept shows promise, but needs more work...
4. WVO in a diesel - Worked like a champ.  They actually thought it would fail as well and were stunned when they cruised around for quite a while on nothing but WVO.
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« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2008, 06:36:19 PM »

Not that one,it uses baking soda and water. National Vapor Industries Inc. @ www.nationalvapor.com , makes a unit that uses mineral water and distilled water, no caustic solution= longer life of internal parts and more reliability. There are no computers or other sensors to deal with.
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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2008, 01:35:14 PM »

I wonder if even WVO (waste vegetable oil?) would be cost effective over a period of time in a multiple vehicle situation.  Suppose it begins with a definition of terms and stuff like that.  Is it easy to state success---it is quite another thing to be able to scientifically prove cause and effect, plus causality. (sp?)

Have/are/will major trucking companys test the validity of employing WVO in some form as a potential/actual way to reduce the cost-per-mile of operating a large truck fleet?   Perhaps someone who knows more about this stuff than I do will log on and set us straight.  Glug glug and all that stuff.  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2008, 02:22:42 PM »

unlikely you will see any major trucking co. or other business get too invlolved with WVO or any other type of fuel simply due to the highway tax on fuel. as soon as some gov. official found out about it the feds would be threating back taxes and penalties etc due to trying to avoid the road tax. has already happened with some individuals trying this and there are some court issues resulting from it. would be tough for a business with IFTA's and DOT numbers etc if they got caught.
just my $.02
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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2008, 02:33:44 PM »

If the trucking companies could be assured of a steady supply when and where they need it, and their total cost was indeed lower, they would probably be happy to pay the road tax on it and still come out ahead.  But, while it is feasible for an individual to get enough WVO to meet their needs, a trucking company would need 1000's of gallons and the ability to refuel a various points across the country.  WVO would soon become a valuable commodity and no longer such a bargain.
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ttomas
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« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2008, 02:55:34 PM »

Thanks for the replies folks. As always, quite a variety of opinions.  I am going to try it.  I have seen a  torch run with the system.
Someone quoted  a mithbuster saying acetone did not work to increase mileage.  I have used and tested acetone extensivly, and it does make a substantial difference (however it did work not on every type  of gas engine nor on my tests with diesels). Non of the engines that worked for me were 2000 or later.  I tested a few newer engines ,not many, all had no or little effect.
My 1997 aerostar gets 15% to 25% better mileage adding 2 ounces  of acetone per 10 gallons of gas. I have added it to every tank for over 50k miles with zero adverse effects.
Mithbusters and snake oil salesmen come from the same mold, just different materials.      Tomas
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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2008, 01:41:46 AM »

About that WVO as fuel.  Anybody that tells you that that won't work is probably trying to protect "his" discovery and fuel supply.  It does work and works so well that it is not debatable.  Problem is that if you load up a modern hi pressure electronic fuel rail D with the stuff the fuel pump will bite the dust.  WVO or SVO(straight Veg Oil) aka Virgin Veg Oil works in the older mechanicals.  One exception that I know of is the VW D.  That seems to work really well and I personally know people that are useing it in them.  I think another on this board said WVO worked in his DDEC but it isn't "supposed to do so for long.  The University study I have read said that it would cause the engine to fail after long term use and that has been proven false by the legion of WVO users.

Just mixing WVO into DinoD would thicken the fuel enough to overload the fuel pump on a modern D engine.

John
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« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2008, 07:31:59 AM »

WVO will work as a fuel

BUT not the same as diesel & if you don't take all the differences into account, engine life can suffer.

The by products of combustion can wreak havoc on the internals of an engine . . . .

How many diesel engines have lasted over 200,000 miles on regular diesel?
How many have lasted over that on WVO?

Then there are all the 'explanations' as to how WVO didn't contribute to a premature death of an engine - almost impossible to know the real reason since accurate data wasn't kept.

The biggest risk to running any alternative fuel is the advice from a good intentioned 'expert' (that misunderstands the real science) telling how simple & easy it is, & as a result people spend $$$ on something that can't work for their application. That $$$ would be better directed at productive research rather than the trash can.


Once you get full disclosure & know all involved in using an alternative fuel, it is mostly a straightforward decision & the results are predictable.


Again, if it needs support from conspiracy theories . . . . . one would be wise to tread carefully. . . .
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« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2008, 07:44:44 AM »

Hydrogen on demand is probably going to be the fuel of choice, it's relatively easy to produce and much safer than on onboard fuel cell.

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but a couple of people have mentioned hydrogen fuel cells:- Just to be clear, fuel cells are not a way of either producing or storing hydrogen - what fuel cells do is convert hydrogen directly to electricity by means of chemical reaction - hence they are used in vehicles that are powered by electric motors, and not in vehicles with piston engines of any sort.

If you have a fuel cell then you need a means of storing the hydrogen, which means tanks - and on a car-sized vehicle that means lightweight yet fully crash-safe tanks operating at around 4000psi pressure - this is at least twice the pressure that immensely heavy industrial hydrogen tanks work at - not surprisingly this is one of the biggest issues which engineers developing hydrogen-powered vehicles have to overcome. In my opinion you can also entirely forget about the 'dream' of on-board generation - producing sufficient amounts of hydrogen to power a vehicle in real-time just isn't going to happen unless someone re-writes the principles of electrolysis. As far as I know there is no big manufacturer or university etc is working on a real-time hydrogen generation system, but obviously lots of tinkerers / conspiracy theorists / snake oil salemen etc claim to have already done it.

Jeremy

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« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2008, 07:51:38 AM »

Rudolph Diesel used peanut oil to create his first compression ignition engine.  Even in the late 1800's, he was trying to get away from the petroleum companies.  Most all Diesel engines, no matter their design, will run on veg oil.  As stated, with high pressure common rail fuel injection systems running in the 30,000psi range, you have to have veg oil that has the same viscosity as Diesel.  That usually is as simple as heating it up to around 120 degrees.  The new Diesel's that Detroit has, like the DD15 are being advertised as having a B50 life (50% of the engines will get there) of 1.2 million miles.  The big question would be-could you run veg oil in that engine, keep the veg oil consistant to the point that it would allow the engine to last that 1.2 million miles?  Personally, I don't think so. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2008, 08:00:27 AM »

I really hate to burst some bubbles but, radio works, tv is now a reality, and they even have a vehicle called a space shuttle that actually goes up in the air, check some of the past threads, I posted several links to actual vehicles that are being driven, some from very questionable sources, like mercedes and toyota, real snake oil salesman, those guys, also a couple of links from several very questionable universities like Purdue, what has to happen here is for people to stop and do some research on the subject and not just dismiss it as an unworkable concept, california is in the process of setting up a statewide distribution system for 600 toyotas that operate on hydrogen and they will be testing there in a real time situation.  This whole thing reminds me of a phone call I made to detroit diesel to get some information on 2 strokes and I was told that detroit has nothing to do with 2 strokes, that they make diesel engines not weedeaters, thats the actual words I was told by the guy on the other end of the phone at a detroit diesel repair shop.
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« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2008, 08:25:47 AM »

california is in the process of setting up a statewide distribution system for 600 toyotas that operate on hydrogen and they will be testing there in a real time situation.

I suspect you've hoisted yourself on your own petard there - if Toyota was developing on-board generation why would they need a statewide distribution system for the hydrogen?

Jeremy
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« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2008, 08:45:27 AM »

Huge chasm between concept test & viable marketable vehicle.

Some times building the bridge between the two isn't possible . . . .

But good luck to the bridge builders anyway.
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« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2008, 08:45:43 AM »

Kyle,

I was deeply in your camp early on.  What sorta turned me around was clearing up some issues I had.  Firstly, the salt and sugar issues.  Neither of those is good for an internal combustion engine and both are used heavily in cooking.  Turns out that neither salt or sugar is soluble in VO so that is a non issue.  The component in WVO that does the most damage is suspended WATER.  Water cannot me mechanically filtered but it certainly can be completely removed with a centrifuge or other means.  Solid particulate will clog the D's fuel filter and those are spendy but that isn't trashing an engine and they are removed to the submicron level in the centrifuge process.  The "pure" WVO that remains still has a host of stuff in there that is chemical gobbledygook but adds up to mostly animal fat.  The University evals ran their test engine for only a comparatively few number of hours and then tore the engine down for eval.  They discovered that there were deposits in the engine that exceeded what would be experienced with Dino and extrapolated engine failure in the 100's of hours.  That flys in the face of actual experience if only in that there are a slew around that have been going strong for years.  In the mid sixties I attended the Berlin Grand Pre in Germany.  I was surprised that "caster bean" oil was used in the race car and motor cycle fuels.  Seems that stuff is a superior lube to any Dino and is only beat by Syn.  Caster will gum up rings in a short time and all engines had to be disassembled and flushed with alcohol after each race so there is precedent for your missgivings.  Caster bean being lethal it doesn't often find its way into the food chain except in China so it isn't an issue with WVO. Tongue  UI think almost all the VO stock is a superior lube to Dino but I can't site any charts or studies except for reports I have read in WVO supporters lit.

Again, I was in your camp but I kept running into "reality" and we all know that reality is a crutch for people that can't tolerate drugs and alcohol.  Stay frosty! Cool

Kyle, I think the proof is in the pudding on this.  I can't argue this on any technical/scientific footing but I think the shoes should be put on different feet.  WVO is a successful fuel and that is proven so I think those that feel that is not true should be coming up with the documented failures.  It doesn't fly that all those that have experienced that are so ashamed that they won't admit it.  Heck, just look at me....I was married once. Grin
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« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2008, 08:51:47 AM »

http://www-news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=6217       how can they continue to lie about this, is it mass hypnosis?, or do they actually have those things being tested, this particular one is a fuel cell, remember? the one that can't be done?                               http://www.ecofriendlymag.com/sustainable-transporation-and-alternative-fuel/hydrogen-on-demand-makes-1st-appearance-at-l-a-auto-show/     I sure wish they could do something like this too.                                   http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f81/purdue-university-engineers-develop-cost-competitive-hydrogen-demand-system-61083/              http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Uniquely/FutureTechnologies/Hydrogen.aspx?enc=t0eBkkksaeOlO9zOt8gzADZCvgwlYpsTNlAXDAkk1+s=  I guess none of this exists tho it's been well documented by many sources.  
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« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2008, 09:25:28 AM »

For the benefit of other readers I've just had a quick look at each of the four links that Cody provided:

The first one is about a Toyota fuel-cell vehicle - nothing to do with on-board generation here (remember, fuel cells neither create or store hydrogen)

The second link is about on-board generation, but is from an organisation that I've never heard of (HydroLectricPower LLC) and certainly wouldn't trust at face value

The third link (Purdue University) is about a way of spliting H20 into hydrogen and oxgen by using metal hydrides rather than electrolosis. This in itself is nothing new. The article is very short and is only introducing the theory - no claims are made about likely hydrogen outputs, and there is certainly no suggestion that any working vehicle-powering system has been built.

The fourth link is about the BMW's hydrogen powered 7-series. No on-board generation here either - in fact this is the simplest of the lot - just a tank of hydrogen and the standard BMW V12 piston engine

Jeremy

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« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2008, 09:52:09 AM »

Clearly you have no understanding of the concept, I'm done with the topic, I'm really sorry I even tryed to show anyone what already exists.
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« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2008, 10:14:38 AM »

johned, re read what I said. In the first line I said "WVO will work as a fuel"

It is NOT a direct drop in replacement. As you have said, it must be handled a certain way or the suspended water will cause problems. That was what I was pointing out. I've talked to many that rushed out to burn straight WVO in their diesels only to ruin the motor because they didn't correctly prepare the WVO.

WVO's success depends on your criteria.
use as a direct drop in replacement for regular diesel - no
use as an alternative fuel with required additional end user processing - yes
use as an additive to regular diesel - only if properly processed.
cheaper than regular diesel - maybe, depends on how much free time you have & your ability to amortize the costs associated with the processing.


You won't find documented failures because those who have the capacity to accurately document their 'testing' typically are smart enough to do the proper processing.

BTW, All the ones I know that have used WVO & had failures won't admit it publicly. Be it from embarrassment or the vicious attacks from within the WVO community accusing them of various things like lying & planned sabotage.
The failures include gummed up motors, excessive carbon buildup in the exhaust, failed turbos, processing station fire, WVO spills in 'the good car', etc.


For those that missed the point,
I will do what I can to help anyone. That help includes assistance in making an informed decision. Once you have made the decision, I'll assist in what ever way I can to help you succeed. I will not try to sabotage your efforts by with holding information.

I do not find happiness in the failure of others that have made informed decisions.

However, I have been known to laugh at those who refuse to think . . . .



Jeremy, Maybe you & I need the same glasses. I came to similar conclusions.

Kinda makes you wonder about the concept some have concerning reading comprehension . . .  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2008, 10:25:43 AM »

Interestingly, when asked to document the stated credentials. the subject suddenly gets changed, that in itself tells me all I need to know, smoke is still smoke.
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« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2008, 10:44:49 AM »

cody,
you are doing just fine & don't need any help from me with your smoke screen.

 Grin  Grin  Grin  Grin



BTW, anyone seen the horse lately? I know it's been dead a while, but after all this beating, the pieces are getting harder to find . . . . .
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 10:46:50 AM by kyle4501 » Logged

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. (R.M. Nixon)
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