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Author Topic: batteries again 8D ?????  (Read 3526 times)
Lonnie time to go
Lonnie
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« on: June 13, 2008, 04:58:56 PM »

I need a little help with this
some have said that a good battery is the lifetime 8D31  sealed battery no maintenance.
well I found 8D  batteries  with the label   908D  400amp reserve  1400 CCA {not exact}
price wow 225.00 no lifetime  only 1 year
Wondering how to find correct battery  with lifetime  at what cost and price and brand
I want batteries to start the bus only cant afford house batteries at the current time
another Huh would be when I do buy house batteries  do I have to buy new starter batteries.
thanks for the help
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1976 4905
Lonnie time to go
Lonnie
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« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2008, 05:10:08 PM »

Forgot to add that I am in michigan very cold winters.
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1976 4905
Blacksheep
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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2008, 07:07:56 PM »

Personally I would ditch the 8D's, go with group 31's as long as your JUST using them for starting, and seeing as how your in the cold climate, go with a block heater!

BS
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tekebird
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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2008, 07:09:35 PM »

search the past posts, I had a nice head to head comparison of 31 vs 8d.

really the benefit of the 31 is that they are lighter...

Nothing beats a pair of 8D's for starting in Northern places.
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tekebird
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« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2008, 07:12:05 PM »

Volume of batteries

Grp 31  approx 835 CI
8D                   2296 CI

so basically it takes just shy of 3 Grp 31's to give equal performance of 1 8D

Optimum Operating temp for lead acid batteries is about 77 degrees (OATS)

In a perfectly new battery you lose roughly 10% of it's capacity for ever 10 degrees of temp decline

this is why some people start having cold start issues when it's not really cold out.

between cold soaking the block overnight and cold soaking the batteries themselves this effect can be magnified

some other stats to save you from looking them up.

31 900CCA, RC 195, # of plates 120 (max)
8d 1400CCA, RC 380, # of plates 180 ( max)

 RC=reserve capacity is in minutes and is based on a 25amp draw
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tekebird
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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2008, 07:21:10 PM »

My money and coach.....in Michigan, a pair of 8D's.

the block heater is a given no mater the battery configuration

A couple crank no starts will do in a pair or three of 31's fairly easy in sub freezing temps
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Hartley
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« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2008, 07:24:38 PM »

When buying start & running batteries I always look at them this way.

Starting batteries should last at least 2 years. Spending lots of money on fancy
batteries just used for starting is a waste. If you get more life from them then
that's great. I do as do most people.

A pair of Truck/Fleet style 8D batteries with 1400 CCA is nice when you have cold
weather or hard starts. They are not cheap but not as expensive as sealed batteries and when you accidentally melt one or both the wallet impact is less.

I pulled the 2 8D batteries from my MC9 and installed 4 group 31 batteries all rated at 1050 CCA in the series/parallel setup for 24 volts.

Before I changed my start ups were normal and when colder weather came along somewhat harder to get the detroit spun over. That was with the 8D's inline.

Since I changed to Group 31 batteries, My starts are 3X faster than before and the low temp starts are much improved.

So much improved that It started another minor problem. The engine was spinning to life so fast that the fuel pressure sense switch would cut the starter off before the engine would catch and run. Had to adjust that. ( I know that probably didn't make sense. Sorry.. Just me lately. )

If you can't SPIN that detroit hard and fast it will become a chore to live with during less than ideal weather. Having a lot of reserve capacity is really nice if you get stuck having to reprime the fuel system and need a few extra start cycles to make stuff work.

Dave.....
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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2008, 08:04:06 PM »

Teke.....are U sure about those numbers???  I have not seen HDs with more than 1425+_...( per battery)  tell us where you get them...  Maybe it is something ...uh, new?

RCB
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tekebird
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« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2008, 08:06:41 PM »

rcb I think you are reading the data wrong.

CI is Cubic Inches of Volume/Lead
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tekebird
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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2008, 08:08:25 PM »

Dr Dave,

not really a far comparison on your setups. unless your 8D setup wwere new batteries too.

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Sojourner
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2008, 08:22:31 PM »

I am from Michigan until Dec of 1999. I got tired of slow cranking worn out 8D batteries. I brought 2 new Sam’s Club group 31 with about 1000 CCA. It cranks faster than before. When 15°F outside…it still cranks but need block heater on for about 45 minutes and then it rrrruuuuum just as soon I hit starter button.

Do what you want spend. The 8D are more for buses that have heavy duty air conditioner and interior lighting while idling. They too heavy to R&R to service & clean storage compartment floor. The warranties are not as good as group 31. Not many want to stock them due to slow mover. Back injury is usually from heavy lifting as well smashing finger or fingers.

If you’re in below zero climate and wants to start it allot, then go for 4 of group 31 that rated at least 940 CCA. All newer heavy duty class 8 trucks are using 4 (some may be 2) group 31 batteries.

BTW…you can warm up 2 group 31 batteries quicker then 1 8D if need to in very cold climate.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
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Lonnie time to go
Lonnie
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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2008, 08:26:29 PM »

hi guys i was reading old post last night to get up to speed of battery
so  8D  and 31s are two different types thanks
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1976 4905
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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2008, 08:47:25 PM »

Dr Dave,

not really a far comparison on your setups. unless your 8D setup wwere new batteries too.



Unless I had already nearly given myself a hernia installing a pair of NEW 8D's
the week previously....
I was having issues with the side terminal versus the
top terminal battery styles. NJT used the side terminal and those are not
normally available at most truck battery places.

So while thinking things over I decided to pull the 8D's and go with the Group 31's
and not have to worry over post type crappy terminals and having to adapt
everything. A few heavy jumpers and 4 batteries and no corrosion problems.

The no-spill/fill Group 31's may have cost a bit more but so far they have held up very well even under non-ideal conditions.
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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2008, 08:07:05 AM »

My coach was set up by the PO with a switch that connects the house batt. bank to the start batts. in case your start batts. are weak. That is really nice. Unless the house bank is depleted from dry camping for 4 days... I have been using that feature lately because my 8Ds start are tired and I'm shopping around for my best deal on 2 new group 31s.

JC
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JC
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2008, 01:39:25 PM »

It would seem that Michigan is the problem. Most in the south and many northerners are useing group 31's. So maybe better leave Michigan and head south to solve problem.
 
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« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2008, 03:59:26 PM »

This is a subject which I've tossed around in my mind for almost 2 years. I'll add some info that some of you don't offer...my system is 24V start and lighting but (conversion) 12V house system.

I live in the south, NC, and winter in FL. I still want my 8D's even though I know people who use 31's.
If, and that's part of the 8D problem, I maintain a decent charge in my 8D's they should last me for 5-6 years providing I don't abuse them. Asking 31's to start the engine, accept the charge rate of that BIG alternator, share that charge with a Vanner to maintain the house batteries strikes me as too much to ask of Grp 31's.

I don't have any Inverters so that's not a problem..I try to use the KISS principle. My way isn't the best but it works for me.

Bob
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« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2008, 05:12:22 PM »

This is a subject which I've tossed around in my mind for almost 2 years. I'll add some info that some of you don't offer...my system is 24V start and lighting but (conversion) 12V house system.

I live in the south, NC, and winter in FL. I still want my 8D's even though I know people who use 31's.
If, and that's part of the 8D problem, I maintain a decent charge in my 8D's they should last me for 5-6 years providing I don't abuse them. Asking 31's to start the engine, accept the charge rate of that BIG alternator, share that charge with a Vanner to maintain the house batteries strikes me as too much to ask of Grp 31's.

I don't have any Inverters so that's not a problem..I try to use the KISS principle. My way isn't the best but it works for me.

Bob

My experience with 8D's is that they never lasted 5 or 6 years. That is why I changed to the 31's.

I do not think the size of the alternator has anything to do with battery life. Even with a 1,000 amp rated alternator, it will only put out the amount of amps necessary to bring the charge voltage up to around 14 volts. It might take 10 amps or 100 amps but the voltage regulator will decide what the output voltage is and which will control the amperage. At least that is my opinion, FWIW.

Richard
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« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2008, 05:37:01 PM »

Virtually every big rig truck uses size 31 batteries.  So what size battery do you think will be easier to find on the road?  I have 2- 31's Interstate 950cca that turn over the 8V-71 with high compression pistons just fine.  If they are down or it is cold, I can just hit the paralleling switch to also use the 2- 8D deep cycles to help out.   Highly recommend you get away from 8D starting batteries.  If you have a 24v system, then use 4-31's.  Lot easier to handle.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2008, 06:16:58 PM »

Teke...U R correct...MIS-read as CCA ( sorry) must be maturity....  Sad Grin

DML....I agree with U....Have "gotten along" with 31s for a few years now.  8Ds don't seem to last very long....and I have used them in a Crane as well as a coach.

FWIW  Smiley
RCB
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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2008, 06:28:48 PM »

dont know which is best but my '82 Eagle was built new with 3 grp 31's and has had nothing else its whole life. it was sent new to colorado springs so it ran in the cold. seems to work fine and I have never had a problem.
steve
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tekebird
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« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2008, 06:37:02 PM »

hmmm, MCI's still coming with 8D's.

31's are common nowdays in trucks from a economic standoipt...which is one of the reason people switch from 8D's

the other is weight ( ease of handling the 31's)

I don;t think anyone has said that 31's won;t do the job........but 8D's are a larger capacity battery.

and that larger capacity has nothing to do with the A/C

now idea why people have problems with the 8D's

13 buses in my family over the years...only one that ever had battery issues was the 4104, which was fixed when I put solar trickle system on it.  prior to that 2-3 year...after that 8 years +

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Blacksheep
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« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2008, 06:59:01 PM »

T-Bird,  I had a 1965 Eagle 01 that came with 2-8D's for starting! It didn't have the original bus air when I got it but it still had the huge blower fans for the a/c unit. With the 8d'sm the blowers would come on starting out kind of slow until they picked up speed, then ran fine although the running lights on the bus dimmed. After changing the 2 8d's for 4 group 31's, the blower fans still ran but started out a little faster. The lights never did dim after that. Eventually all the wiring was replaced and the blowers were removed! I kind of still feel the large capacity 8d's were there back in the day for the large blowers used and buses sitting idle for long periods of time with the a/c unit on!
A friend of mine had 8d's in his 05 pro converted Eagle and it left him stranded here at my house. He has NO factory air or anything else for that matter regarding the 8d's! They were used to start ONLY! If I recall, it only sat about 1 week. It was a surprise to him when he went to start it and got nothing! We fabricated a battery tray in the RR motor corner and mounted 3 group 31's with shorter cables than the originals. To this day, he has yet to have any trouble! I think cable length has a lot to do with good starting. That and a VERY GOOD ground!

BS
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tekebird
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« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2008, 07:28:20 PM »

A properly operating alternator on a modern bus (post 50's) will easily produce more than enough power for Coach HVAC blowers.


Again your coaches scenerio seems more likey just older batteries.

I seem to see alot of people who have 8D "problems are having problems with the 8D's that came with their coach from wherever they got it.  These batteries can certainly be geting on in years and or mismatched.

Yep mismatched batteries will cause problems.....thats why you replace them as sets.  Even in AA batteries, yeah throwing one new on in a pack of 6 will boost the output a bit to make your remote work for a week more but the others will kill that good battery.

Seems to me that since the begining of MCI they have been using 8D's...and still are ( although you can get 31's in a Prevost) with MCI probably having the most coaches on the road daily you would tthink if 31's were the answer theen they would be using them......even is only to put a few more bucks in thier pocket.

Again, do whatever you want....it is your coach. 




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Lonnie time to go
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« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2008, 07:54:04 PM »

GREAT INFO GUYS THANKS
I HAVE FOUND BATTERIES AT SAMS CLUB FOR A LOT CHEAPER .
I KNOW SOME DO NOT LIKE WALMART QUALITY BUT THERE 40% CHEAPER
ON 8D  AND GROUP 31  BOTH MADE FOR THE NORTH.
I SHOULD PUT THAT ON A NEW POST BUT Huh?
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1976 4905
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« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2008, 07:58:34 PM »

Be cautious with the 8d's from Sam's! We bought 2 of them when we picked up our 01 Eagle in Louisiana and they lasted until we got in the driveway! Charging system checked out good. Batteries didn't hold a charge! Didn't run with the lights on either. They just slowly drained and when I got home, bus would not start! Let me also add that after they sat for about 20 minutes they would crank the motor slowly but no start!

BS
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« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2008, 08:06:21 PM »

the problem with any off brand/store brand battery of any group is they are usually carrying alot less lead  than the same battery in the manufacturer's brand.

this is the case in alot of stuff.

For instance, you might notice shopping for powertools at one of the big box stores that there are model numbers that are not on the manufacturer's site......they were built to the stores specs....and mainly cheaper to support the lower price.

Now I'd never buy an 8D from Wallyworld, for the above reason and I question thier volume of sales.  Like tires...you don;t want a battery that has been sitting on a shelf for 2 years or so.

Batteryies have build codes on them for a reason...and I am not talking the stupid little date decal that they pluck when you buy it.

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Lonnie time to go
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« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2008, 09:07:29 PM »

i thought that so  sams have energizer brand   must be new to the big battery market
what are the best brand names  ?
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1976 4905
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« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2008, 06:04:07 AM »

I buy my 8D's from NAPA about $150 apiece and warranteed anywhere in the country! Also just about every NAPA I ever saw had delivery trucks! I had them bring me a set out to a hotel once.  FWIW.  Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2008, 06:38:10 AM »

not sure about today, but 10 years ago there were only a handfull of battery manufacturers in the states..........with dozens of brand names. 

the Energizer branding does not mean that is who made them......they were likely made by a well known manufacturer to Wallyword specs.  (read cheaply)

Alot of Real Battery places will deliver, I had a 100 round trip delivery in 1999 while in CA

Spend a bit more and get a real brand of battery and any dealer will replace them nationwide

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« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2008, 09:56:31 AM »

Sam's 8Ds never lasted more than 2 years.  Sometimes, less than a year.   A friend had similar experience.

Because of better warranty, I was going to change to Group 31s.  IF, your engine starts easily, and IF, you will always preheat the engine, 2 would probably be adequate.

Have any of you recognized that new car batteries last substantially longer than replacements?   I am just now going to replace an 8 year old battery in a Buick Regal.

Ed
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Blacksheep
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« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2008, 10:00:05 AM »

Ed a Buick Regal? I thought Tiger Woods was the only one that drove one of those! Just kidding! Hope all is well!
BS
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« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2008, 02:25:03 PM »

Ed, I also noticed that Replacement car windshields pit fast than Original equiped......even factory replacement glass pits faster.

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