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Author Topic: Motor cooling tips....  (Read 7719 times)
Dallas
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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2008, 12:49:05 PM »

Chaz, the oil to air heat exchanger is just a radiator that has oil running through it. You can make one from an old LARGE air conditioning condenser with an electric fan from a front wheel drive car radiator. Or you could buy a Hayden Transmission cooler of the largest size they make and mount either on the transmission access door.

The flap under the radiator is just another way to create a low pressure area so that the air is forced to be drawn through the radiator and forced out under the engine. Hint: If you put a trans cooler on the passenger side, also put a flap under that door, it may help.

On the speedometer, for under $100 you can buy a tach and sending unit on eBay, install it, then have some one follow you in a vehicle with known accurate speedometer. As you reach the top of each gear, where you can't accelerate on the flats anymore, turn on your 4-ways for a second or wag your hand out the window. Have them remember the speed they were going when they saw you do that. To get a little fancier, have them flash their lights at you when you hit 45, 55, 65 and 70 mph. watch the tach as they do this and you'll have the most important speeds.

If you want, I have an old serial port GPS I would be willing to give you when you get a laptop. It works great, but I've upgraded to a USB model I can put outside.

Dallas
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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2008, 12:52:13 PM »

Chaz, the oil to air heat exchanger is just a radiator that has oil running through it. You can make one from an old LARGE air conditioning condenser with an electric fan from a front wheel drive car radiator. Or you could buy a Hayden Transmission cooler of the largest size they make and mount either on the transmission access door.

The flap under the radiator is just another way to create a low pressure area so that the air is forced to be drawn through the radiator and forced out under the engine. Hint: If you put a trans cooler on the passenger side, also put a flap under that door, it may help.

On the speedometer, for under $100 you can buy a tach and sending unit on eBay, install it, then have some one follow you in a vehicle with known accurate speedometer. As you reach the top of each gear, where you can't accelerate on the flats anymore, turn on your 4-ways for a second or wag your hand out the window. Have them remember the speed they were going when they saw you do that. To get a little fancier, have them flash their lights at you when you hit 45, 55, 65 and 70 mph. watch the tach as they do this and you'll have the most important speeds.

If you want, I have an old serial port GPS I would be willing to give you when you get a laptop. It works great, but I've upgraded to a USB model I can put outside.

Dallas

Cell phones work great for this test.

Richard
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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2008, 01:54:02 PM »

It also looks like you dont have the complete shroud length, it should at least be the same width of the fan blades or more to get the full value of the fan.>>>Dan
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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2008, 02:36:58 PM »

Chaz...
      You mentioned the temp droped back to normal when you slowed. That was similar to the behavior I experienced. The flow was restricted in the radiator. If you are going over the week of the 4th you don't want to be stuck over the holiday with a dead bus. Pulling the radiator and cleaning it out is not expensive, if the core is good. If the core is bad you want a new one anyway. The coolant and a couple of gaskets, plus some time and friends (it's heavy) are all you need. If that's the problem you save a motor. If not, you had a day with friends and a clean radiator for the next few years....
     Sorry if I sound preachy....My first experience with radiator problems left me in Wolf Creek, Ore. for 2 weeks waiting for parts. Not the best vacation. But I did get a new motor...Cable
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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2008, 02:48:28 PM »

Thanx Dan! Good call! I didn't even notice that. Roll Eyes  And I have even built several S.S. shrouds for Hot Rods.  Embarrassed

 Dallas,
  So basically, just use the same belting and run a length along the bottom of the radiator lenght-ways with the bus. (?) Easy enough I think. But do you think putting one on either side, regardless if I do the cooler or not, would help? I'm not an "air authority" but seems feasible.

  THIS is the kind of stuff I was talking about as far as tips and tricks go. Very cool!! Thanx guys.

Quote
Chaz, the oil to air heat exchanger is just a radiator that has oil running through it. You can make one from an old LARGE air conditioning condenser with an electric fan from a front wheel drive car radiator. Or you could buy a Hayden Transmission cooler of the largest size they make and mount either on the transmission access door
I'm aware of the trany cooler on cars (external ones), so you're saying build a BIG one or buy one. Is that to replace the type cooler I have, or supplement it?
  
  As far as the speedo goes, I'm saving up to hopefully kill several birds with one stone. A GPS and hopefully a backup camera with it. Do they make such a creature, or is that something a person would need to kinda piece together themselves? I guess the lap top can become one with them, but I'm not sure about all that stuff yet. It's on the back burner. I, obviously, have bigger hills to climb.  Tongue Grin
  
  Dallas, if you get back up this way, (Hopefully soon) I think I could use a good "one day-er" class on my bus......... stem to stern.  Grin There is just soooooooo much to know and learn.

  Hats off to you guys again!


     Chaz

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Cell phones work great for this test.
Good call Richard. Dallas was thinking Old School again.  Wink  Bad thing is, I was biting!! LOLOLOLOLOL  Grin
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« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2008, 02:54:06 PM »

Thanx Cable,
  We criss crossed posts.  Smiley
  I think I may be doing that.............. along with the other couple tricks I found out about. I've read so much about people trying to keep these beasts cool that I want to hedge my bet the best i can. Plus, I will be going down I-75 and then over to Bristol TN. for the night race. Jellico Mountain can be pretty trying I understand.  Shocked  Might as well get ready now.

 But if ther are ANY other tricks or tips, PLEASE post them bad boys. It could help someone else down the road........ so to speak.  Roll Eyes Grin Grin Grin

   Chaz
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« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2008, 03:44:19 PM »

On a GM coach application adding shroud material below the radiatore will not give any noticable effect on cooling.

the added ammount of low pressure would be negligable and have little effect on evacuating/exhausting the hot air.

and you are effectivly reducing the area from which hot air can leave the engine compartment.

from the factory, hot air leaves the engine compartment via Suction ( low psi vs High psi from below the bumper, below the tranny door and beloe the radiator ( in the radiator over the fan and out one of the three above mentioned paths)

I would suggest you address the problem properly by finding the cause...rather than wasting time and money on band aids

Address the following:

1. Radiator condition
2. Thermostat operation
3. Fan operation



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Chaz
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« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2008, 05:54:28 PM »

Well ain't that just "matter of factly"
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Dallas
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« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2008, 03:55:41 AM »

Thanx Dan! Good call! I didn't even notice that. Roll Eyes  And I have even built several S.S. shrouds for Hot Rods.  Embarrassed

 Dallas,
  So basically, just use the same belting and run a length along the bottom of the radiator lenght-ways with the bus. (?) Easy enough I think. But do you think putting one on either side, regardless if I do the cooler or not, would help? I'm not an "air authority" but seems feasible.

  THIS is the kind of stuff I was talking about as far as tips and tricks go. Very cool!! Thanx guys.

Quote
Chaz, the oil to air heat exchanger is just a radiator that has oil running through it. You can make one from an old LARGE air conditioning condenser with an electric fan from a front wheel drive car radiator. Or you could buy a Hayden Transmission cooler of the largest size they make and mount either on the transmission access door
I'm aware of the trany cooler on cars (external ones), so you're saying build a BIG one or buy one. Is that to replace the type cooler I have, or supplement it?
   
  As far as the speedo goes, I'm saving up to hopefully kill several birds with one stone. A GPS and hopefully a backup camera with it. Do they make such a creature, or is that something a person would need to kinda piece together themselves? I guess the lap top can become one with them, but I'm not sure about all that stuff yet. It's on the back burner. I, obviously, have bigger hills to climb.  Tongue Grin
 
  Dallas, if you get back up this way, (Hopefully soon) I think I could use a good "one day-er" class on my bus......... stem to stern.  Grin There is just soooooooo much to know and learn.

  Hats off to you guys again!


     Chaz

p.s.
Quote
Cell phones work great for this test.
Good call Richard. Dallas was thinking Old School again.  Wink  Bad thing is, I was biting!! LOLOLOLOLOL  Grin


I always think old school! I'm oldish  Wink. Besdies I don't want my popcorn popping as I'm driving down the road talking on the cell phone!

The Trans cooler would be in conjunction with your current coolant to oil heat exchanger.. one plus of setting it up that way is that it seems to me that your engine will come up to operating temp sooner, giving you some much needed heat on those cold mornings when you need to leave early.

I wouldn't run the belting all the way to the ground on the side doors, but maybe 3-4" down. Just enough to cause a better low pressure area forcing the air out the rear.

I'm not sure when Cat and I will be able to make it over, I have had to take a couple of days off work after losing an argument with a piece of 2X6 and a Prevost XLII. This means I'll have to make up the lost time on the weekend.

Hopefully, I'll be back up to speed tomorrow after the green and purple swelling goes down.

Dallas
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« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2008, 06:04:53 AM »

Thanx Dallas!
  Good luck on the "technicolor".  Grin
     Chaz
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« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2008, 07:13:18 AM »

Ok...................
  I got ahold of some belting. (YESSSSS) It's rock quarry belt so its a bit thicker, but I think will be fine. So back to an original question: does it matter how low it goes to the ground or is the lower the better? (that would be my thought)
  I'm also going to add a 2 1/2" ring around the fan- welded to the shroud. Both these things should be easy enough to do for starters and obviously should be done.
  Then.................. I guess I need to look at doing the radiator. I'm not overly enthusiastic about pulling that monster, but if necessary, I can and will. But I was wondering if I dropped the bottom tank do you think I could tell anything? Just curious, cause if it should happen to be ok (I know....wishful thinking) it could save me some trouble.
 Oh, and what/where do I get the gasket material for between the tanks and core?

   Thanx Guys,
      Chaz
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« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2008, 07:40:31 AM »

Dallas and Chaz,

Although your concept of increasing the low pressure is in the right direction, as I said in my last post, you are effectively making the exhaust air area smaller.

hot engine air is designed to go from the low pressure to the high pressure, this includes out the sides of the bottom of the engine compartment too.  there is a significant low pressure on the side of a bus, think about it, thats where the A/C Condensor air goes out the bottom and then out the side, as well as back

I don't have a wind tunnel to prove my theory, but I doubt that you will see any cooling improvement by adding belting to the sides, i fact at lower speeds you may see an decrease in efficiency by reducing the exhaust exit area.

I think the ring on the shroud will aid a bit but again that is not the problem.  That shroud looks to be the same OEM shroud that has been on all of the buffaloes we have owned.  which is 5 with two still in our ownership.  Ask me how I remember....becuase starting at age 10 I was cleaning bus engines, including fan blades, which were easily accessable

Again, address the real problem.

GM's never really had cooling issued when in passenger service, they have a nicely designed big radiator, and a well engineered hot air exhaust system.

Your problem is one of the three things Mentioned in earlier posts.
Start checking those. and your problem will be gone.



Address the problem
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« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2008, 08:10:31 AM »

It seems to me that if you have already towed a car and it didn't overheat it is probably not a restricted ventilation problem. When I had my 4905 I just reached in and felt the radiator and if it had widely varying temps on the surface,
that would mean I had a partial blockage. I would get the bus to temp and feel around if you don't have an IR gun (after two "false" alarms with two different buses I would highly recommend getting one) and use your hands to see if you can discern any areas of blockage. The 730's are pretty suspect as well, is the tranny shifting normally Chaz?
If the tranny overheats it will overheat the motor. But if it was working fine before I am in agreement with the earlier post it is probably either the stat, the gauge, or blockage somewhere in your system. Try looking in your coolant return tank to see if you have good circulation as well. Your hands will probably be able to diagnose this issue, if you put your hand on the inlet side of your stats and it is remarkable different on the outlet. You have solved you riddle. Good luck on your trip. Keep it between the lines , on the interstate and your temp gauge. By the way both times it was my gauge was wildly inaccurate. Occams razor "The simplest answer is usually best".
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skipn
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« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2008, 08:11:18 AM »

 Along Tekebirds venue......First would be diagnose the problem.

  You may wish to try this for non teardown diagnoses.

    testing

   Please remember there should be the exact numbers in some book somewhere.
   At operating temps, high idle
     1. Measure the heat at the top of the tank then the bottom The heat difference should be X # of deg (in a book)
           If the bottom is not cooler then the rad is not doing its job (fins, plugged and or Fan speed)
     2. Measure the top of the tank continuously it should go up and down fairly regularly (thermostat working)
           if not   the therm. is stuck open or not opening enough   either way replace.
     3. Fans can look like they are working but it is hard to see a 10% belt slippage/hyd wear.
          with an biddle or optical tach   measure fan speed both low and high idle and compare it against the engine
          rpms figure the percentage if it is above 5% (my opinion some will figure differently) then fix


       And as always YMMV
        You all may know this but I thought I would state it for those who don't

     Skip
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« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2008, 07:17:21 PM »

If the vernatherm is working and the engine is hot, when you accelerate the engine, the fan will accelerate with the engine. If the Vernatherm has failed, you might see that the fan just idles over even though the engine is hot.

This makes for a cheap test.

Tom Caffrey
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