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Author Topic: Motor cooling tips....  (Read 7646 times)
Chaz
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« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2008, 07:12:08 AM »

Dallas,
  I'm interested in putting in a trans cooler as you spoke of. I would like to find one at a "boneyard", if possible, to save some cake for the rest of the project. Is there a specifc model or at least some sort of guide lines - tubing size , flow, capacity, etc. - that I should be aware of? And of course, I'd like your opinion on where to mount it and plumb the lines into.

Tom,
  Sorry for thr lack of knowledge but, is a Vernatherm the unit that drives the fan? Thats my assumption. If so, will I be able to see the fluctuation easily with the naked eye as I rev the motor?

Skip,
  I'll try to round up a "gun" but last fall Jerry "shot" my radiator with his gun when I pulled in to a ralley and I believe it was 185 on top and 165 on bottom. Not saying that something couldn't have gone wrong since then, but it sounds like it was good back then.

So now, with all that you guys have helped me with, it sounds like the fandrive could maybe have a problem. I'll do some more diagnosis, but if it is, what does it take to fix that? The radiator I can do. The trany cooler I can do. BUT...... I haven't a clue about this fan thing.  Huh Tongue

  Thanx for all the help. Looks like my weekend is going to be busier than I had hoped.

   Trying to be kool,
       Chaz
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« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2008, 07:47:22 PM »

Chaz, I think you should be able to see if the fan accelerates with the engine. The drive should take the fan up to within 10% of the speed of the engine, so it will blow a lot of air if it is up to speed.

When the Vernatherm is shuts the fan off, the fan idles over quite slowly, and does not speed up much when the engine is revved up.

The Vernatherm is the thermostat for the fan; it is mounted in a coolant pipe down low. When the coolant gets hot enough, it turns on the fan drive by causing the torus to fill with oil.

I don't recall for sure if the Vernatherm blocks the drain to fill the torus, or admits oil to it.

For what it's worth.

Tom Caffrey
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Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
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Chaz
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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2008, 10:46:36 AM »

I guess I'm going to pull the radiator. I I may as well. Might as well cover all the bases.
 
 I called my parts counter buddy to get me the tank to core gaskets. He thought he could, but as it turns out....not.  Undecided  So where do you guys get yours?

 Another buddy has an infra red gun so i will scope it out with that first, but, just in case........ I will have to get the gaskets somewhere.

  By the way, the fan will not spin when trying to do it by hand. Is that good, bad, insignificant...?

Thanx guys,
    Chaz
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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2008, 01:50:19 PM »

Luke at US Coach has the upper and lower radiator tank gaskets. Grin
888-262-2434
He said give him a call.jlv Grin
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JohnEd
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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2008, 03:28:47 PM »

Chaz,

Before you pull the rad do something else.  1) drain the coolant from the rad, engine block and lines to the front heater.  2) refill with water and "WASHING SODA" mixed according to the box ++++.  Start the engine and bring her up to temp with the heater on inside.  Make sure the defroster is hot and the thermostats are open by feeling the input to the rads. Run for thirty min at fast idle.  3) Drain the rad, block and heater 4)  refill with water and repeat till the water coming out after heating does not have a soapy feel on your fingers.  This may take 4 cycles.  The project take a couple hours plus cause the engine warms slowly even with all that cardboard blocking air flow.  It is very important to "repeat" till no soda is in the water cause the stuff acts like a detergent and will, after a while, take out your water pump seals.  Just like a car.  The amt of crud you see come out of an engine that is only a couple years old is amazing....yours might scare you.  You can leave a ton of debris in the lines to the heater and in the block so make sure the drains run clear and full.

About that angle fixed to the leading edge of the rad opening:  It is a free refinement and will detract under no circumstance.  It makes a low pressure behind it and this helps turn the airstream into the radiator.  The edge perpendicular to the side should be the closest to the opening.

Using a hi-pressure water washer, clean out you rad.  Then spray a detergent into the fins and go at again.  I have read many posts where this alone corrected a overheating problem.

You have two sides to the engine and I think you have two thermostats.  At any rate you need the temp gun to stay on top and proper diag this and future ailments.

And, I did not say roding the rad was a bad idea...just see if you can avoid it.

HTH,

John
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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2008, 06:00:57 PM »

Chaz I have tryed to stay out of the washing soda and clothing softner in radiator. all old wifes tales. If you want to clean out radiator go to NAPA and get some radiator cleaner and put in there according to mixture noted on can/bottle it will take severl then take the old girl out and warm her up good and follow the durection on the container I don't mean to disrespect anybody on here but your not doing laundry your trying to clean out a radiator and save a 1000 dollars and you can get a roll of gasket material at NAPA also and make your own gaskets a real small peen hammer makes short work out of making a gasket. and be careful if you do pull radiator them suckers are heavy.

LarryH
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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2008, 09:48:29 PM »

Chaz, the fan drive is fixed if you can't turn the fan by hand. That means that you're already getting maximum cooling that fan speed will give you.

About all you can do in that case is make sure the fan size and surroundings are what they should be.

We make a point of using the fluid drive because I believe it makes a difference in fuel economy, especially in cool to cold weather. The fan draws quite a bit of power from the engine; running it at speed when that is not needed helps nothing at all.

For what it's worth.

Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
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« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2008, 11:18:05 PM »

LarryH,

Actually I agree with you on all counts.  Washing soda is inferior to "some" of the flush products out there.  I don't know which are the best.  Washing soda is a good product for the cleaning on the cheap and I think some of the commercial products have it as an ingredient. It has been used since I was a kid and that's just a little after they invented "dirt".

I have used it on friends engines that blew a turbo and injected a lot of exhaust gasses into the coolant.  The system was cruddy and the analysis came back with a blown head gasket.  I suspected that the shop had not flushed the system after the turbo thing and I suggested we do a serious flush before he launched into having the engine torn down as he was planning.  The flush with washing soda did the trick and the next analysis came back with glowing results.  Saved many thousands of needless repair costs.

I can't over emphasize this enuf.....flush the system repeatedly with water after using a flush product.  Make sure all parts of the system are open to the flush process and are also flushed.  Heater, Wabasto etc.  Check the flush water for a "slippery soapy feel" and flush till it doesn't feel that way.

John
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Chaz
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« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2008, 12:11:45 PM »

I flushed the system out, back and forth. I may pull the heaters next if I have time.

Dan noticed that the fan shroud should be back further. I completely missed that. And I have even built them for Hot Rods! (brain fart)
Do any of you guys shrouds extend back farther than mine? Wouldn't you think that would be a good idea? And possibly even a better idea to taper it so the air would flow better instead of running into a wall?

 Whataya think?
    Chaz
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« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2008, 02:33:02 PM »

we have two 4108's presently and have had 3 other buffalos, none had a shroud that extended back.  yours looks OEM to me.
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« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2008, 07:14:05 PM »

Cooling systems become more effecient as the pressure is increased. I can pull the radiator fill cap and it will release pressure weeks after I have last driven my Eagle. So, how tight is your system? No pressure, no heat rejection.

Water pumps don't last for ever. Hook a small hose to a water plug on top of the engine and see how far it will spray water.
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Chaz
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« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2008, 07:35:16 AM »

OK guys here is what I have done but she is still not up to snuff. I took 12 people to a concert in Indy (80 miles away) and she did fine going up. But on the way home, about midnight (cooler out), the red overheat warning light came on about 7 miles from home. I slowed down but she stayed on. So as I was pulling over, it went off. Everything seemed fine so I brought her home.

Here is what I have done so far:

The rad has been rodded and boiled. Everything flushed. New thermostats (and some hoses). New coolant that checks to -40*. Wix precharged additive added. I did not modify the corners of the fan shroud so air can get thru better but I did extend the shroud to cover the fan blades. The fan "seems" to be speeding up with engine speed - at least to best I can tell with the naked eye. (From what I can tell, it's a mechanical drive fan-no flying saucer thing on the end) I have the temp gauge on the dash that isn't correct, but I put a mechanical on the engine so I can compare.

The only things I can guess now are: maybe the water pump isn't up to snuff or maybe the ol' girl is just that tired and is working up a bunch of extra heat. I guess a trany cooler (oil to air) could help but as Teke has said, if everything works right, it shouldn't need it. By the way, the 730 was added. At least all the tell tale signs point to that.

So what is the next step? I'm open.

Thanx a bunch,
  Chaz



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« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2008, 07:58:43 AM »

I thought that it was mandatory to put a transmission cooler on when installing an automatic.
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Dallas
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« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2008, 09:25:41 AM »

OK guys here is what I have done but she is still not up to snuff. I took 12 people to a concert in Indy (80 miles away) and she did fine going up. But on the way home, about midnight (cooler out), the red overheat warning light came on about 7 miles from home. I slowed down but she stayed on. So as I was pulling over, it went off. Everything seemed fine so I brought her home.

Here is what I have done so far:

The rad has been rodded and boiled. Everything flushed. New thermostats (and some hoses). New coolant that checks to -40*. Wix precharged additive added. I did not modify the corners of the fan shroud so air can get thru better but I did extend the shroud to cover the fan blades. The fan "seems" to be speeding up with engine speed - at least to best I can tell with the naked eye. (From what I can tell, it's a mechanical drive fan-no flying saucer thing on the end) I have the temp gauge on the dash that isn't correct, but I put a mechanical on the engine so I can compare.

The only things I can guess now are: maybe the water pump isn't up to snuff or maybe the ol' girl is just that tired and is working up a bunch of extra heat. I guess a trany cooler (oil to air) could help but as Teke has said, if everything works right, it shouldn't need it. By the way, the 730 was added. At least all the tell tale signs point to that.

So what is the next step? I'm open.

Thanx a bunch,
  Chaz

Chaz,

I doubt that your water pump is bad, those bronze impellers are pretty tough, the biggest problems with water pumps on DD's, like many others is the seal at the back starts leaking. It's also a gear driven pump so it's either going to work or it's not, there isn't much in between.

Yes, you do need a transmission cooler, especially if you don't have a "Double Double" oil cooler on the side of the engine. One goes to the engine oil, one is for the transmission oil. If your automatic was added after market, then there is a good possibility that there is not enough cooling for it.

Question:What was the reading from your rear temp gauge when you were overheating?
Observation:If your dash gauge is titsup, what makes you think the idiot light is correct? Does the Alarmastat shut the engine down when it reaches too high a temp?
Question:If you stick your finger in the surge tank, does it come out with a bit of black stuff on it? If so, you may have a blown o-ring on the head.
Question:If you open the rad cap while it's overheating, do you get a gush of coolant? Again could be a blown head gasket o-ring.

We are in Overpeck, Ohio, not too far from you. If you need help, give us a holler.

Dallas
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Chaz
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« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2008, 05:49:48 PM »

Lin,
  Your correct, there has to be a cooler on an auto. Mine has a water (coolant) to oil cooler. I was actually talking about an air to oil cooler. Sorry.

Dallas,
  Sorry, I didn't get a reading off of the mechanical. I was more interested in getting my friends home. So after I pulled over, I only went back to see if I had any leaks.

  I can't you where the light is set to come on, but as near as I can tell, it's around 200 to 210. Somewhere in there.

The Alarmastat? Ok.......well....... nothing has ever shut me down. So I wonder if that works on my bus or if maybe someone disabled it? I guess I should look into that.

I stuck my inger in the puke tank and it came out "clean and green".

I haven't tried dong that when hot as I was afraid to get the perverbial "bath". And altho I like my showers hot.............................I don't want to smell like antifreeze.  Grin Grin Grin lololol

If you don't think the pump should be bad, or at least it's not common, I wonder if the ol'girl is just that tired. Maybe if I put the air to oil cooler on the trany it will help. But I can't help but think that is just a bandaid.

  Still tryin (after all these years) to be Kool,
      Chaz
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