Bus Conversions dot Com Bulletin Board
September 17, 2014, 10:44:59 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you had an E-Mag Subscription: It will not be stolen by your mailman or your neighbor who also may be into buses.
   Home   Help Forum Rules Search Calendar Login Register BCM Home Page Contact BCM  
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: What can WE do about oil prices? Possibly OT  (Read 3488 times)
NCbob
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1261


"Foolish Pleasure" 35' MC5A




Ignore
« on: June 17, 2008, 05:16:19 PM »

First, lest we interpret this as a political topic....let's all take a deep breath and consider that we're all in the same boat and it is NOT flying the flag of EITHER Political party!

Had former President Clinton not closed ANWR to oil exploration 14 years ago we would not be in the fix we're in now. Not slamming Clinton...it's a fact and it's done!

We have to deal with today and tomorrow and the future of our children, grandchildren and our Nation. I cannot see any other short term solution other than to lift the ban on ANWR and drilling between 50 and 200 miles off both Coasts in addition to fast tracking the development of alternative sources of energy which will take longer than it will to bring domestic oil and natural gas to the marketplace.

The majority of Americans feel very closely to what I've expressed here.  If we don't let the jugheads in the Congress know what we're thinking during an Election year do you really think they'll ever wish to hear what we have to say? Putting off decisions until tomorrow is a favorite maneuver of both parties. Will putting if off solve anything?

Contact your elected Representative and voice your opinion to him or her. Either way...but DO IT!

GIT 'ER DONE!

Bob
Logged

True friends are difficult to find, hard to leave and impossible to forget.
NJT5047
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1942





Ignore
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2008, 06:52:50 PM »

I agree Bob.  I won't get into politics either...but the environmentalists and their favorite pol party have finally got what they've wanted for years...high fuel prices.  However, they didn't plan for fuel prices to spike at election time.  Now they're running away from their $4 buck a gallon platform??  Weenies!  I suggest the Dems liberals stand their ground!    Wink
What the environmentals really wanted was $1.00 a gallon fuel with $3.00 of taxes tacked on. Didn't work out that way at all.  Too bad.   Tongue
I'm a Gingrich fan...'drill here, drill now'...I know the concept has limits, but drilling will cushion the sudden (catastrophic) loss of affordable energy. 
Technology (and a little luck) will save our butts...eventually.
The 'perfect storm' that has brought riches to China and their recently oil hungry economy, is winding down--rapidly.  The culprit is high energy costs. 
Shipping from Asia was cheap until recently, but the transport costs are wiping out low cost manufacturing savings.   This new expense, coupled with the crap and corruption that is typical of dealing with China is bringing jobs back to our hemisphere...and it may, eventually,  save the world some energy.  Maybe. 
Mexico doesn't do high-tech, so some mid-tech and high-tech manufacturing jobs are coming home.  Cool.
China and India (and us) are primary reasons for high oil prices.  The devalued dollar and commodities speculation are secondary issues.  Negatives in China are good for us.
Inflation in China is also damaging their ability to produce goods cheaply.  They are bleeding jobs.  The Chinese are subsidizing oil, and limiting (trying to) exports of oil and coal.   Oil refiners were illegally exporting petroleum because they couldn't sell it for what it cost.  That's going to change. 
Who knows...maybe something good will come out of all this pump-pain!   Shocked
I hope that our buses don't become targets of the few remaining environmentalists.  We could fall from favor, and be considered wastrels!  Though we use much less fuel than pleasure boats, and about the same as most class A RVs, we stand out. 
The marine and RV industry has taken a hit due to fuel prices! 
Happy to say that my business is pretty good...motorcycles are selling!  I'm wondering if Honda is still pleased after puliing all of their motorcycle manufacturing from the US?  Maybe not?  Grin
If fuel prices don't come down, the US is going to be 'bleeding jobs' too.  High fuel cost is a serious threat to our well-being.

Cheers, JR

Bob, are you and Jackie going to Kyle's October Palmetto Cove Non-Rally?  We cannot make the July gig, but planning for the October rally. 



Logged

JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
Jerry Liebler
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1320




Ignore
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2008, 08:54:53 PM »

Bob,
    If as you suggested Clinton had not closed ANWAR and it had been leased it could have joined the 680.000 acres that have been leased to oil companies but haven't been drilled, they are waiting for higher prices.  Or it could have been fully developed and it would, maybe, have delayed today's prices by a few months, it is just not that big according to T Boone Pickens's testimony today.  The real problem is much worse than any of us wants to believe.  For a real scare read  www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
Logged
Brassman
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 257




Ignore
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2008, 10:09:32 PM »

You know, looking at the previous post's link I think it's time to hoard some diesel (albeit after the price decline). The stuff is going to be worth more than gold--as long as the EPA doesn't search for ones underground reservoir.
Logged
NJT5047
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1942





Ignore
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2008, 06:32:32 AM »

I dunno.  I don't think it's as bad as it seems.   How many people have noticed that Honda auto is scattering fuel cell powered vehicles around in California?   Teknologie is gonna save us...maybe not us bus owners, but we'll have a source of energy. 
$4 a gallon fuel makes the search for alternative sources a sound business opportunity.   
JR
Logged

JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
jjrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2313

MCI5C/N Ft Myers FL




Ignore
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2008, 07:29:16 AM »

I'm on the fence on this. I do not know if I am in denile or looking at things rationaly.  Jerry mentioned the 680,000 acres that are leased but not drilled.  Why are they after all that other land? (Anwar and offshor) Is it becuse thay want to cherry pick? Grab all the easy stuff, buy the leases now while they can get them cheap, take the money and run?
 The oil researves are lower than expected, so the price goes up. Ahh, who controls the oil reserves? Might it be the big oil co's?  Why are we subsidizing fuel in Euorpe (type splash and dash in your search bar) Why are we shipping 70,000 gallons of subsidized bio diesel to Euorpe everyday? There is no market for it here. Why are we not expoiting the Bakken formation? The Canadians are doing it very succesfully! Why would'nt Bush stop filling the reserve? I mean they are putting oil in the ground, I thought we have lots of oil in the ground? The Cafe standard is to be 35 MPG by the year 2020 (full of loopholes)  Japan and Euorpe already meet this!!!
 I want fo be with NJT, Couple rough years, things will change alot. Then technology/alternate energy will change the peak oil theroy.
 In the meantime, Bob is right, keep it non political, do some research, there are lots of conflicting reports. Write your reps (dont email, write) and tell them you will vote for the other party if they dont get off thier butts and do something.
 Thanks for letting me ramble.   Jim
Logged

Remember, even at a Mensa convention someone is the dumbest person in the room!

http://photobucket.com/buspictures

http://photobucket.com/buspictures
Jerry Liebler
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1320




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2008, 08:31:25 AM »

Jim,
    Yesterday I watched CSPAN's coverage of senate hearings on electrical transmission infrastructure needs.  They featured legendary oil man T Boone Pickens advocating what may be a practical way to avoid the disaster we are facing.  He kept harping on the fact that we in the US are exporting over 700 billion dollars a year to obtain the 70% of oil we must import.  He said among many other things, that he believes in "peak oil" and the world is at the peak.  His solution is harness wind energy and solar energy to generate electricity and free up the natural gas for use as a transportation fuel.  He also dismissed as totally inadequate the entire concept of 'drilling our way out of the problem'.  If technology is to save our 'standard of living' we'll have to  use it, the technology.  Using the technology will mean significant changes, like what Mr. Pickens is working on.  Let's quit blaming the physical fact that we are running out of oil on environmentalists and make the transition to  a renewable energy supply.  It will be a daunting challenge and we'll need oil to do it so we better get to it before the oil is too far gone.  This should not be political at all, all our very survival is seriously threatened.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120 
Logged
ktmossman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 525




Ignore
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2008, 01:01:09 PM »

It is very hard to know all of the facts in this scenario because everyone providing the data has an agenda.  But there are a few things that appear to be pretty clear:

  • Our dependence on foreign oil has proven extremely painful, both geo-politically and financially.
  • Because we cannot produce enough oil to be self-sustaining for any significant length of time, we must pursue alternative forms of energy as a long-term (15 + years) solution.
  • We have available resources to alleviate (to some extent) the problem in the mid-term (5 - 10 years).  There are unexplored/untapped reserves and companies willing to build new refineries.
  • Short-term (1 - 5 years) solutions are much harder to define but would generally be limited to things that Congress would have control over (taxes, incentives, trade policy, etc.)

In my opinion, someone has to put forward a comprehensive plan that includes the whole picture instead of trying to demagogue a particular point for a given constituency (which is what is happening now.)

1. Long-term - Offer real incentives and investment for PROVEN solutions.  Stop penalizing inventive people for developing solutions (fining people who use WVO because they didn't pay fuel tax, etc.)  Stop dumping good money into solutions that are clearly not viable (like biodiesel, which the govt is subsidizing at an insane level just to get it close to affordable and, even though it barely touches the demand, is already causing food shortages.)  How about something like the X-Prize to generate solutions - $10 million to the first person/group who can demonstrate a viable/affordable-to-the-everyday-joe alternative fuel/engine system for transportation?

2. Mid-term - Go after every available natural resource.  If you really think there are environmental risks, make the oil companies put up a bond to correct it if they cause a problem (like they do in other countries).  Tell the environmentalists to put up or shut-up - put a viable alternative on the table (that private industry is willing to fund) or shut the he** up and get out of the way.  Eliminate the NIMBY game.  This is a national issue and everyone should be part of the solution. 

3. Short-term - Congress needs to get their hands out of the cookie jar.  Eliminate taxes from every layer of the fuel exploration, recovery, refining, distribution, etc. process.  When the citizenry is paying through the nose, no congressperson should be able to stand there with a straight face and express their deep concern while they are looting the system.  They can pay for it by not funding the Hog Farming Hall of Fame and other such nonsense.  They always seem to be able to come up with the money for their pet projects, so I'm sure they can cover this loss of tax revenue.

4. Short/mid-term - Get tough with the oil companies.  If they aren't pumping and delivering into the market the maximum capacity available to them, we will sell their lease to someone else who will.

5. Short/mid-term - Get tough with OPEC.  Announce #2 and #4 above and, on top of it, tell all of our foreign sources that, starting next year, we will cap imported petroleum to no more than x% of their OUTPUT.  This % will decrease by a set % every two years for (at least) the next 20 years.  If they want to sell us more petroleum, they will have to put more petroleum into the global market, which will keep the price down.

6. Short/mid-term - End speculation on petroleum.  Anyone buying oil must take physical possession of the product and process (refine) it in some manner.

7. Short/mid-term - Get tough on the auto manufacturers.  Announce that, starting next year, we will allow the importation (without penalty) of any engine that exceeds by x% the average MPG of the best of the similarly sized engines produced here.  If the best 3 - 4 liter engines in a given year average 27 mpg, any foreign-made engine that beats that number by x% can be imported.

Just a couple thoughts from my addled brain...
Logged
NJT5047
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1942





Ignore
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2008, 01:38:15 PM »

Our fuel shortage has other resolutions.  Coal gasification is quite suitable for making very clean diesel and jet fuel.  Only problem (what else?) is environmentalists.  Cannot damage mother earth digging up that awful coal.   Shocked 
Between coal and nuclear power, we could rather rapidly become energy independent.  Coal gasification competes at above $55 dollars a barrel for crude.  Coal gasification requires no new technology, no new fancy distribution system as it could be pumped thru existing systems, and it's quick to put into service.  And best of all, the fuel runs in old buses!   Smiley
Keep in mind when suggesting wind power, that the environmentalists are taking positions against wind power.   
Solar power is in no way cost effective. 
As for as ethanol goes, ethanol for fuel is a hoax that is being perpetrated on stupid people.   Only countries without coal and oil would consider burning their food sources for inefficient ethanol production.
The best way to improve our energy supply is to remove the government from the equation.   Pols are the enemy.  Both parties!  I'd much rather take my chances with the greedy oil companies.
I believe that automobile owners are making the big change now.  Even if fuel prices go down, people are snake-bit by fuel costs.   Prepare for the states and fed to start penalizing highly efficient vehicles in an attempt to recoup lost highway revenue.
Y'all have a lovely day!  JR

Logged

JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
HighTechRedneck
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2927


BCM Editor


WWW
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2008, 02:24:36 PM »

It is very hard to know all of the facts in this scenario because everyone providing the data has an agenda.  But there are a few things that appear to be pretty clear:

  • Our dependence on foreign oil has proven extremely painful, both geo-politically and financially.
  • Because we cannot produce enough oil to be self-sustaining for any significant length of time, we must pursue alternative forms of energy as a long-term (15 + years) solution.
  • We have available resources to alleviate (to some extent) the problem in the mid-term (5 - 10 years).  There are unexplored/untapped reserves and companies willing to build new refineries.
  • Short-term (1 - 5 years) solutions are much harder to define but would generally be limited to things that Congress would have control over (taxes, incentives, trade policy, etc.)

In my opinion, someone has to put forward a comprehensive plan that includes the whole picture instead of trying to demagogue a particular point for a given constituency (which is what is happening now.)

1. Long-term - Offer real incentives and investment for PROVEN solutions.  Stop penalizing inventive people for developing solutions (fining people who use WVO because they didn't pay fuel tax, etc.)  Stop dumping good money into solutions that are clearly not viable (like biodiesel, which the govt is subsidizing at an insane level just to get it close to affordable and, even though it barely touches the demand, is already causing food shortages.)  How about something like the X-Prize to generate solutions - $10 million to the first person/group who can demonstrate a viable/affordable-to-the-everyday-joe alternative fuel/engine system for transportation?

2. Mid-term - Go after every available natural resource.  If you really think there are environmental risks, make the oil companies put up a bond to correct it if they cause a problem (like they do in other countries).  Tell the environmentalists to put up or shut-up - put a viable alternative on the table (that private industry is willing to fund) or shut the he** up and get out of the way.  Eliminate the NIMBY game.  This is a national issue and everyone should be part of the solution. 

3. Short-term - Congress needs to get their hands out of the cookie jar.  Eliminate taxes from every layer of the fuel exploration, recovery, refining, distribution, etc. process.  When the citizenry is paying through the nose, no congressperson should be able to stand there with a straight face and express their deep concern while they are looting the system.  They can pay for it by not funding the Hog Farming Hall of Fame and other such nonsense.  They always seem to be able to come up with the money for their pet projects, so I'm sure they can cover this loss of tax revenue.

4. Short/mid-term - Get tough with the oil companies.  If they aren't pumping and delivering into the market the maximum capacity available to them, we will sell their lease to someone else who will.

5. Short/mid-term - Get tough with OPEC.  Announce #2 and #4 above and, on top of it, tell all of our foreign sources that, starting next year, we will cap imported petroleum to no more than x% of their OUTPUT.  This % will decrease by a set % every two years for (at least) the next 20 years.  If they want to sell us more petroleum, they will have to put more petroleum into the global market, which will keep the price down.

6. Short/mid-term - End speculation on petroleum.  Anyone buying oil must take physical possession of the product and process (refine) it in some manner.

7. Short/mid-term - Get tough on the auto manufacturers.  Announce that, starting next year, we will allow the importation (without penalty) of any engine that exceeds by x% the average MPG of the best of the similarly sized engines produced here.  If the best 3 - 4 liter engines in a given year average 27 mpg, any foreign-made engine that beats that number by x% can be imported.

Just a couple thoughts from my addled brain...

Rarely do I see a post in a controversial topic that I agree with every point made.  But I totally agree with every thing you said in this post.  Especially items #4 and 6 in your plan.  I absolutely detest that at this critical time oil companies can acquire oil leases and then just sit on them.

Logged
garhawk
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 213




Ignore
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2008, 03:15:18 PM »

this subject keeps coming up on a regular basis.

the last two times caused me to make a few comments as to why oil prices are high.

for some reason, my posts were eliminated.

why are my ideas less important than the others?

gary t'berry
rts 102 40er
Logged

gary t'berry
Eagle Mod 20 DD ser 60 w/slide
GMC RTS 102"  40er (in progress)
HighTechRedneck
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2927


BCM Editor


WWW
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2008, 03:27:47 PM »

this subject keeps coming up on a regular basis.

the last two times caused me to make a few comments as to why oil prices are high.

for some reason, my posts were eliminated.

why are my ideas less important than the others?

gary t'berry
rts 102 40er


Gary, would these be the one's?

fuel prices

blame for fuel prices
Logged
Jerry Liebler
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1320




Ignore
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2008, 04:09:14 PM »

Well I watched some house debate today on CSPAN & must correct the earlier number of undrilled oil leases.  It is 68 Million acres and includes a large block that is adjacent to ANWAR.   The idea of use it or loose it  on these oil leases seems to have some political appeal, to democrats, but it is clearly opposed by the republicans and the Pres has said it'll be vetoed.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120 
Logged
NCbob
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1261


"Foolish Pleasure" 35' MC5A




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2008, 04:18:09 PM »

Jerry, the idea of "use it or lose it" was not a debated idea but proposed by the leader of the IL (Dem) Caucus. In an attempt to keep this thread "apolitical" I'm going to suggest that if you have a political point, as you and I have been doing, put them in a PM to the individual in question and have a personal debate.

The Moderators have been more than patient with this thread and for that I thank them. I knew that dangerous ground upon which I was walking but asked each of you to keep it to topic without extraneous comment. Most have done that....and don't think I haven't been tempted...but PLEASE, let's stay on topic.

Bob
Logged

True friends are difficult to find, hard to leave and impossible to forget.
Dallas
Guest

« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2008, 04:21:49 PM »

this subject keeps coming up on a regular basis.

the last two times caused me to make a few comments as to why oil prices are high.

for some reason, my posts were eliminated.

why are my ideas less important than the others?

gary t'berry
rts 102 40er

We, as moderators do not delete posts out of hand.

The only time that we will delete a post is if it fails to follow the rules of the board. No other posts have been, are now or will be deleted.

Any post that comes close to being questionable gets moved to the moderators board for review. if the big Kuhuna thinks it's acceptable, we return it to it's spot.

I really hate when people decide we are deleting posts and we aren't.

Dallas
Logged
NCbob
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1261


"Foolish Pleasure" 35' MC5A




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2008, 04:28:29 PM »

I wouldn't wish to see any posts, or this thread for that matter, deleted for not complying with the Rules.

If we can, without prejudice, get back to the subject line...I for one...would sit back and be happy to listen.

Bob 
Logged

True friends are difficult to find, hard to leave and impossible to forget.
Jerry Liebler
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1320




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2008, 05:10:38 PM »

Bob,
    Back to the subject line.  We live in a society where "political" process affects most everything so the things we can do about oil prices inevitably involve politics.  Unless we own an oil company the only things we can do are influence our political representatives.  Our political representatives can influence supply and demand through incentives and or penalties, but they can't change the physical reality that oil is a finite resource and other nations are wanting more.  The status quo has strong political backing and any change from it will impact somebody's profits.  A major shift to wind, hydro, solar, and nuclear to generate most of our electricity would certainly reduce demand for oil and gas and lower both oil prices and oil company profits.  A massive investment in CNG vehicles and fueling infrastructure would also help significantly, especially if accompanied by reducing the need for natural gas to generate electricity.   Simply allowing drilling anywhere might improve supply but since there are 68 million acres that have been leased but undeveloped, it doesn't seem this will help.  Maybe we need to think about a penalty tax rate for those not drilling on leases they hold.  Let's brainstorm this.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
 
Logged
DrivingMissLazy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2634




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2008, 06:08:15 PM »

this subject keeps coming up on a regular basis.

the last two times caused me to make a few comments as to why oil prices are high.

for some reason, my posts were eliminated.

why are my ideas less important than the others?

gary t'berry
rts 102 40er

We, as moderators do not delete posts out of hand.

The only time that we will delete a post is if it fails to follow the rules of the board. No other posts have been, are now or will be deleted.

Any post that comes close to being questionable gets moved to the moderators board for review. if the big Kuhuna thinks it's acceptable, we return it to it's spot.

I really hate when people decide we are deleting posts and we aren't.

Dallas

And if you check who is on the board when you check in you will find that generally there is at least one moderator signed on at about any time of the day or night. I suspect that is why Phil and MAK decided on several moderators so that if any flame wars got started it could hopefully be nipped in the bud. So far that seems to have worked out very well and I do not think anything has been deleted for several months. So you guys and gals have been doing a terrific job and we all thank you for that.

Richard

« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 06:10:53 PM by DrivingMissLazy » Logged

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a good Reisling in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming:  WOO HOO, what a ride
mikelutestanski
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 381


Mikes Metal Mistress




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2008, 07:07:55 PM »

Hello          you cannot do this without being political.   The politicos are running the show .   ie  making the policy.
    So  a word about nuclear power.   When it was first touted  it was going to be almost free limitless energy..   ha  ha    .   I remember the adds.    Ok   A fact.  nuclear power has never been profitable..  never.   Subsidies have always been needed to prop up the industry. The greens succeeded removing the subsidies   3 times but a a very powerful senator had them tacked onto bills  very successfully and very quietly.  So subsidies are back.  so are new plants;  being licensed that will require more subsidies.
     The long term concern that i have about nukers is the spent fuel storage which has to be onsite because nothing can be shipped after use.   So this great pool of nice hot stuff..  real dirty stuff by the way ; is sitting there causing all the jihadists to have ectasy dreams thinking about the possibilities.
     SO   enough about nukers     what about oil       big subject    do you know the answers to your questions?.  can you find the answers ?     A pretty difficult answer because the energy companies dont want you to know about costs and where the oil goes.
       Question   How much of the USA crude   stays in the USA.  how much goes abroad?     Should any go abroad.?   You will be surprised at the answers to those questions.   
        Coal      great stuff   I am from the Anthracite capital of the world.   By the way anthracite is the cleanest burning of the coal family and it is no winner in that department.   ANybody wanting to know how coal in West Va is mined just take a look at the mining maps..   no more underground stuff.    just remove the mountain on top   take the coal   and fill th hole.   Works well except for the poeple living there and downstream.   Oh by the way whole towns have disappeared because of flooding  and bad water.
        THe coal companies own one of the networks thats why you see the new clean coal  adds...    LOL

           SO the bottom line is   things are tough  and going to get worse.   Just don't believe the party line because its probably not true..  You just need to pick the best of the evils..       Do you really want 8 more years of the same..  loved it     bring it on   my kids and grandkids  can worry about it       who  me  no  not me   ..     

     I always say Happy Bussin    at the end    but it gets  harder to believe it..  Mike
         
Logged

Mike Lutestanski   Dunnellon Florida
  1972 MCI 7
  L10 Cummins  B400R  4.625R
Melbo
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1070


MC8 under construction




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2008, 07:10:00 PM »

WOW

And this hasn't gotten ugly

I really like that

Lots of posts in a very short time and very civil and really non political

My only question is who said that oil is  a finite resource?Huh

And why would anyone believe him??

I really think that a new paradigm on this subject would be helpful

Keep on drilling and keep on discovering and keep on driving -- this is just a blib in the system

Melbo --- AND KEEP IT POSITIVE
Logged

If it won't go FORCE it ---- if it breaks it needed to be replaced anyway
Albuquerque, NM   MC8 L10 Cummins ZF
HighTechRedneck
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2927


BCM Editor


WWW
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2008, 07:43:42 PM »

WOW

And this hasn't gotten ugly

I really like that

Lots of posts in a very short time and very civil and really non political

My only question is who said that oil is  a finite resource?Huh

And why would anyone believe him??

I really think that a new paradigm on this subject would be helpful

Keep on drilling and keep on discovering and keep on driving -- this is just a blib in the system

Melbo --- AND KEEP IT POSITIVE

I wouldn't be surprised if there turned out to be massive oil basins out under the deep ocean floors.  But it won't be easy to drill there.

Too bad we can't set up wind generators all around the Congressional building.  Capture all the hot air blowing out of there.   Grin
Logged
NJT5047
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1942





Ignore
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2008, 07:50:37 PM »

Hello          you cannot do this without being political.   The politicos are running the show .   ie  making the policy.
    So  a word about nuclear power.   When it was first touted  it was going to be almost free limitless energy..   ha  ha    .   I remember the adds.    Ok   A fact.  nuclear power has never been profitable..  never.   Subsidies have always been needed to prop up the industry. The greens succeeded removing the subsidies   3 times but a a very powerful senator had them tacked onto bills  very successfully and very quietly.  So subsidies are back.  so are new plants;  being licensed that will require more subsidies.
     The long term concern that i have about nukers is the spent fuel storage which has to be onsite because nothing can be shipped after use.   So this great pool of nice hot stuff..  real dirty stuff by the way ; is sitting there causing all the jihadists to have ectasy dreams thinking about the possibilities.
     SO   enough about nukers     what about oil       big subject    do you know the answers to your questions?.  can you find the answers ?     A pretty difficult answer because the energy companies dont want you to know about costs and where the oil goes.
       Question   How much of the USA crude   stays in the USA.  how much goes abroad?     Should any go abroad.?   You will be surprised at the answers to those questions.   
        Coal      great stuff   I am from the Anthracite capital of the world.   By the way anthracite is the cleanest burning of the coal family and it is no winner in that department.   ANybody wanting to know how coal in West Va is mined just take a look at the mining maps..   no more underground stuff.    just remove the mountain on top   take the coal   and fill th hole.   Works well except for the poeple living there and downstream.   Oh by the way whole towns have disappeared because of flooding  and bad water.
        THe coal companies own one of the networks thats why you see the new clean coal  adds...    LOL

           SO the bottom line is   things are tough  and going to get worse.   Just don't believe the party line because its probably not true..  You just need to pick the best of the evils..       Do you really want 8 more years of the same..  loved it     bring it on   my kids and grandkids  can worry about it       who  me  no  not me   ..     

     I always say Happy Bussin    at the end    but it gets  harder to believe it..  Mike
         

Gads.  No hope at all.  Reckon I'll sell the bus now.  Bummer.
Maybe not.  Wink
The only reason nuclear power generation is so expensive is related to our environmental laws and  liability lawyers.  France derives over 75% of their electrical power from nuclear generation. 
The storage problem is resolved with Yucca Mountain repository...but the environmentalists are blocking the process. 
Regarding strip mining...I reckon it ain't pretty, but I wonder how many West Virginians would just as soon give up employment to save a mountaintop so some rich guy can go birding?  I don't know. 
This 'green' crap is going to derail our economy to a point that will negatively affect the environment.  Poor folk are not environmentally friendly.  Hungry people are downright destructive.   If I get hungry, I got trees to burn and I'd poach anything that flies or can be found on the hoof...or paws, or whatever.
Anarchy works too.  Not too good for bus'n. 
Notice I didn't mention any political parties!  Now I will.  Yesterday I wouldn't have voted for McCain under any circumstances...(wouldn't vote for the big "O" obviously), but today McCain wants to build 45 nuclear generaters....JOHN MY MAN!  And he wants to allow offshore drilling...probably knowing full well that there isn't an deep water drilling ship available to US oil companies and won't be for plus 5 years.  For myriad reasons, oil development has been underserved for 30 years.  We are starting up in a poor position.  Most oil using countrys are way ahead of us in locating and accessing crude. 
America first.... Those days are over.
Everyone is trying to get into the oceans for oil.  Brazil has located a huge deposit 200 miles offshore.
China is sucking our oil by sidekicking into our oil fields just South of Florida.  Does this for Cuba. 
China is busy locking up some oil.   They won't need it once the big American crash is complete. 
I'd bet the House of Saud is about to poop over oil prices.  They know that there's billions of  barrels of oil to be extracted, and extracted it will be at todays prices...which will promptly force the costs down. 
BTW, there are something like 69 new oil drill rigs in North Dakota...it's getting going.  Just slow.   
Have a happy petrol free day! 
I gotta go out and hug my electric car!   JR



 
Logged

JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
Jerry Liebler
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1320




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2008, 07:54:12 PM »

Melbo,
     The better question is why would anyone say oil was not a finite resource?  T Boone Pickens built a fortune in the oil business and was trained as a geologist but he has said he believes in 'peak oil'. And is now developing the world's largest wind farm.       http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/   has plenty of quotes and references to support the finite oil paradigm.  Accepting that oil is finite and planning accordingly has much less risk if the assumption is wrong than accepting the 'delusion' of infinite oil.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
Logged
cody
Guest

« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2008, 08:06:49 PM »

I guess if a person took into concideration all the 'known' reserves, oil would be concidered running low but then factor in fields that have yet to be discovered and I think the picture is still ok for a while, true, eventually the oil will run out, we're using it up a lot faster than mother nature can replace it, we just have to get used to the idea that cheap oil is a thing of the past, the powers that be have gotten us used to paying more than we should have to, now a minor drop in price would be welcomed by us all.  One good thing that came out of the oil crunch is right here in front of us, we're all discussing it and trying to work out a solution to the problem, if oil was still cheap would any of us really care?
Logged
HighTechRedneck
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2927


BCM Editor


WWW
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2008, 08:17:27 PM »

Of course oil is a finite resource.  But as Cody pointed out and I alluded to previously, I believe there are massive reserves not yet tapped.  Some is on oil leases squated on by oil companies.  But much more is likely out under the open seas.  5 years wait on the ships?  With the proper dedication and motivation, I'll bet they could build them faster. 

Oh yes, and then there is Antarctica.  Since global warming is going to melt down the ice, it could provide oil to the next couple generations out.

But I still believe we need to pursue alternative, renewable sources with extreme haste.  Not because the supplies will be gone soon, but because otherwise, our all our money will have all been transfered to those countries supplying our addiction.
Logged
Melbo
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1070


MC8 under construction




Ignore
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2008, 08:48:43 PM »

So oil can't be grown by algae or by plants made by animals or produced by the earth

I guess you all are right it is finite and we should all sell our buses and dig a big hole and crawl inside and die

Sorry that I was optimistic about our future

Melbo
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 09:12:17 PM by Melbo » Logged

If it won't go FORCE it ---- if it breaks it needed to be replaced anyway
Albuquerque, NM   MC8 L10 Cummins ZF
cody
Guest

« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2008, 09:21:07 PM »

Don't you just hate reality?  My version of reality is that I'm still going to enjoy the bus, still going to visit my friends, still make a little sawdust now and then, only difference is that once I run out of money, I'll start on the kids inheritance lol. One thing that I see that really helps us all out is this family of busnuts, we have incredible mechanics, welders, electrical gurus, a fairly competant sawdust piler, it seems we have all the workings to make a bus do what ever it needs to do, now for the brainfart, why are we spending good hard earned money on outside mechanics and contracting from outside our little community to get the work done that we all need to do from time to time.  I see people pitching in all the time, whenever we put a few hundred dollars into a shops hands it is used to do foolish things with, like pay for workers, pay electric bills, pay insurance and stuff like that when it could be gracefully put into the hands of a board member that would instantly and gleefully run down to the local fuel stop and fill up so he can head to the next rally, ok now, which reality do you like better, mine or the governments lol.
Logged
DrivingMissLazy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2634




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2008, 10:51:22 PM »

Speaking about reality, I saw a great show tonight on Reality TV channel at 10:00 PM. It was called Black Gold and shows drilling for oil. Especially interesting for me as I have two grandsons working in the oil fields now here in WV and PA. It is a new series and will be on next Wednesday nite.

Richard
Logged

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, a good Reisling in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming:  WOO HOO, what a ride
GM0406
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 171





Ignore
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2008, 01:08:07 AM »

Well, Here is what we did in 2003.  We bought four hybrids.  Three Honda Civic Hybrids and one Honda Insight Hybrid.  I think I mentioned before on this site that I have driven from San Jose California to Salt Lake City Utah on less than 13 gallons with the Insight, over the top of Donner Pass at 65 mph and all the way through Nevada and Utah at 75 to 80 mph.  My wife's computer on the Civic Hybrid alway shows close to 45 mpg.  By being careful, driving about 60 mph, I drove her Civic 100 miles with three of us and the computer indicated 49 mpg.  Driving the same way with the Insight, by myself I have done 70 mpg per the computer.  My son is a leadfoot and he gets less than 40 mpg on his Civic.  Now this is fact, not assumption or idle talk!  Either we are getting these mpgs, or the computers are liars!

Now I have an Isuzu diesel 3/4 ton long bed pickup that I can get 34 mpg with if I drive around 55 mph., and is my main work truck.  I get less than 25 if I drive at 70 mph.  This truck has a ladder rack with one extension ladder on it, and a cross box with tools.  It has a 5 speed manual transmission and I have to keep the tire pressure at 36 psi to get the mileage indicated.  I do a little better than what I have indicated as the wheel diameter is larger than the original smaller tires.  By the way, this is with a clean air filter, as you will not get that kind of mileage with a dirty one!  This mileage is also here at sea level with relatively flat driving. 

It is interesting to note that we went to visit our daughter and family in Cincinnati last week.  She has a '96 Yukon, kind of like a suburban.  19 mpg shows on her computer, which is over twice what I have heard these things get.  She gets better fuel mileage than she got with her Chev minivan!  She has 5 girls and one boy, so they can't deal with anything less than 7 passenger.  And luckily that holds 9 so Gpa and Gma can ride too!  And yes they had to remove the center console and add the third seat in front!  I drove this thing, and had fun with the grandchildren as it coasted with no resistance and is certainly a candidate for hybrid techology to regain energy going down the hills around there! 

So this is what we are doing about oil prices.  I do have one car that we will convert to CNG as soon as I find a pump that is reasonable.  This is a no brainer.  We can pump fuel here for about $.95 per gallon equivalent.  Can you believe that in Utah they have rolled back the clock 20 years by having CNG available at local stations for $.64 per gallon equivalent?  Could this have anything to do with Ebay auctions of CNG vehicles that are mostly going to Utah?  Here in Ca, they are screwing us to the wall for $2.12 per gallon at the local airport station last I checked, and they claim to be environmentalists here!!  LOL!!!!  Blue buses are running constantly at the airport with CNG tanks on the roof.  School buses are running here with CNG tanks underneath.  The only car company serious about the evironment is Honda, not Toyota!  You can buy a Honda GX that will do better than 30 mpg on CNG and is the only car that I am aware of that you can still get stickers to drive in the HOV lanes here.  An idea whose time has come with the only hesitation on my part being the Phil Station which is too expensive and too maintenance intensive as far as I am concerned. 

So where is the government on these highly inovative cars?  Well you can't buy a new Insight anymore, because it was 100% made in Japan, and well quotas killed it.  And there are precious few GXes available thanks to no incentives at all to have them in this state.  You should see the learning disabled responses you get when trying to get any information on these cars, from the local gas supplier to the local government.  Even Honda doesn't have any available here in the Bay area, and only one dealer in Southern Ca indicated that they brought in about 30 at the beginning of the year down there.  Can you imagine the ignorance and screwed up marketing and comunity interest in a car that can be filled up at your own home overnight while you are alseep?  That doesn't polute, and will probably last indefinitely!!! 

No, the morons around here are running around in Priuses that polute Canada due to nickel mining according to the internet and have $7,000 batteries in them!  And of all things, Toyota buys ads on the tube and tells us that these are the highest fuel mileage cars and don't polute!!

As mentioned previously here, Honda has fuel cell cars now and is moving ahead while others seem to be in denial and unwilling to get to the job at hand.  Have you seen one of these Smart Cars?  I don't think they can do as well on fuel as a 3 cylinder Geo!  Yet this is called a Smart Car?  You would'nt want to get hit in one of those!  Probably roll like a football down the street, or freeway!  At least the Insight is a low stable unit with wide front wheel stance and narrower rear wheel positioining to give it better than sportscar stability on the road.  And if you are 6 feet tall, you can be comfortable in an Insight.  Not in the dumb car, called the Smart car by Mercedes!!  Uh, they do give you a cigarette plug electric tire inflator with it though! 

Now I don't work for Honda or any of the others mentioned in this post.  But I look for a good idea anywhere I see it.  Let those who want to keep driving fast, and using fuel as they are used to, deal with these higher costs.  The rest of us just need to become a little more iventive and careful.  Why we are still running on $1.50 dollar diesel in our coaches, because we don't go that far.  Bubbles tend to pop given enough time.  Just be patient and let the doomers tell you how fuel will go to $10 a gallon soon.  And of course all else will rise accordingly.  This can keep going until there is a crash.  That is when people will no longer pay what is asked.  Staying home is not all that bad.  Why we have so much more entertainment at home now, and especially those of us who live here in California where we are on vacation weather most of the time anyway.  Why would you want to burn fuel running somewhere else where the weather is worse?  And for those in worse weather places, well that is home.  And home is the best place no matter where it is.  If we stay there, oil prices will take care of themselves, and you can't change them anyway. 

And if you were waiting for a woman president to solve this, it ain't gonna happen.  And if you think a salesman like best described as an Arab American President can solve it, you don't really understand what is going on.  And if you think the other party will solve it, then he better get damned serious about proving that!  Of all the things you can do, reducing your oil consumption is the most effective solution anyone has come up with up till now.  Bill Thoms   

 
Logged
jjrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2313

MCI5C/N Ft Myers FL




Ignore
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2008, 06:21:45 AM »

If they are squating on the leases and not exploring, that take them away and give them to somebody that will. ONe of the better ideas I've seen here!!!!!  Mention that one to your rep......
  I keep hearing, takes too long, cant do it, technology not there,  very sloow, ie: not enough rigs for drilling? Ramping up prduction is something we are extreamly good at. We are Americans not Americants.
Logged

Remember, even at a Mensa convention someone is the dumbest person in the room!

http://photobucket.com/buspictures

http://photobucket.com/buspictures
Paso One
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 508





Ignore
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2008, 07:40:11 AM »

The thing the gets me is Our Government ( Canadian)  wants people to recycle, reduce, re-use Yet they stop people from doing just that for the stupidist reasons. I recently met up with a fellow that Built a refining plant that can produce between 200 and 300 gallons per hour.  He takes used oil and converts it to Clear diesel.  He is 85 years old and is tired of fighting the bureaucrats.  They don't like the location of where was doing it, They don't like the looks of the tanks he gathers the oil in or how he stores it. Yet this plant sits idle. He is hoping to  sell it to someone younger so they can dis assemble it and move it to somewhere "they will want it "  The sad part is he likly needs to train someone on how to use it and at 85 time must be running out.
Logged

68 5303 Fishbowl 40' x 102"
6V71  V730 4:10
mikelutestanski
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 381


Mikes Metal Mistress




Ignore
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2008, 11:09:45 AM »

Hello:   
     The last thing anyone might want to hear  is a flash I had last night.   
       Lets nationalize the oil  and set the fees based on the actual costs of drilling,refining distribution etc.  Guarranteed profit margin built in   no speculation and hedging.  what you see is what you get.   Most of the rest of the worlds oil is owned by a few governments and in the Soudis case by one family albeit a big family but a family nevertheless.
       Is it not the American way   .   no its not ;    but the rest of the world is not playing fair either. 
     The oil companies developed the Saudi industry start to finish  and made some horrific profits and paid the Arabs next to nothing but in the end   they lost the whole industry and the oil.
    By the way On the nuke thing  in response to a comment  about Yucca flats.  DOnt know if it is in service yet but the bigger problem is that most states have transportation laws against moving spent fuel.   
    Where I came from  Oswego NY has 3 nukers sitting by Lake Ontario..    nine mile 1 started in 65 or so  with a reserve storage of 10 years .    Well guess what they are still filling the same pool  50 years later.   2 other plants are nearby that are now under private management.   
        I will do some research on the Yucca flats thing just to see whats cookin..
       Happy Bussin       mike             By the way..  I am not going to quit bussin.  but things have to proceed at a slower pace because my income is fixed.   I can only hope that this repower job helps enough to make up for the lost travel time   The engine will be installed for the final time today or tomorrow.    hook up  and testing   next      mike

   
Logged

Mike Lutestanski   Dunnellon Florida
  1972 MCI 7
  L10 Cummins  B400R  4.625R
kingfa39
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 142





Ignore
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2008, 12:14:01 PM »

seen a car with a sticker that said who needs eneimies when we have congress, it wont change because too many people are getting rich and the american people will not do anything but complain a
Logged
lyndon
1988 MC-9 DDC 6V92TA Fuller T-11605D
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 120





Ignore
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2008, 10:53:38 PM »

Who says petroleum is a nonrenewal resource?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article4133668.ece

There's your new technology, maybe not ready for the big time, but many more developments like this in the next few years won't surprise me. We survived the '70s (complete with line-ups at the pumps!) and we'll survive this crisis, too. My opinion, of course, but I've always been an optimist!

Somewhat off topic:

As I write this, we hear an ad stating, "We have to put climate change in reverse." Lynn wonders which direction that would be, now that it's not PC to call it Global Warming after such a cold winter. Good question! (I'll bet dinosaurs wondered the same thing; now we flame them in our buses.)

Don
Logged

Don
1988 MC-9
Melbo
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1070


MC8 under construction




Ignore
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2008, 06:25:42 AM »

Don

Haven't you read the previous posts.  Oil is a FINITE resource. To think otherwise would be absurd - some guy told us so.

To be optimistic is passe.  We need to begin planning the last trip in our bus so when we run out of fuel we are where we want to spend the rest of our lives.

Only king tut will be able to afford to buy oil. The rest of us are out of luck.

Excuse me while I pull my tongue out of my cheek so I can finish this post.

Of course there are solutions to the current situation. Some are better than others and some will show up sooner than others. We will see competition for biofuels ethanol and things we never even thought of.

I'm not sure that we will do better or worse with government subsidies but between drilling for more oil (which takes time -- that's why they call it exploration) and developing new resources we will do fine. AND the really cool part is that we here in the United States have some of the best technology to draw on so no matter who figures it out where we can really capitalize is in the development be it new oil fields or new technology.

Good link thank you for posting it

Melbo
Logged

If it won't go FORCE it ---- if it breaks it needed to be replaced anyway
Albuquerque, NM   MC8 L10 Cummins ZF
HighTechRedneck
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2927


BCM Editor


WWW
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2008, 10:04:02 AM »



That is amazing technology.  Let's hope they are successful at scaling it up.

With that in mind, I'll clarify, traditional petroleum pumped from the ground is a finite resource, but probably has large reserves that simply haven't been tapped yet.  Of course if bug oil works out, then who needs to go to the expense and trouble of pumping it out of the ground and refining it?
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!