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Author Topic: With Fuel being a major topic today look at this!  (Read 1909 times)
muddog16
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« on: July 04, 2008, 06:58:22 AM »

I found this surfing the web this morning, I don't know if its real but its interesting stuff, If anyone can add some good information to this it would be a nice 4th for everyone!

http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/the-us-governments-secret-colorado-oil-discovery
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Pat

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« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2008, 07:48:21 AM »

Its true, but getting oil from shale is not for the faint of heart.  you have to process the rock, which entails pit or strip mining etc. 

See wikipedia for a more indepth analysis.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale

Most exploitation of oil shale involves mining followed by shipping elsewhere, after which one can burn it directly to generate electricity, or undertake further processing. The most-often used methods of surface mining are open pit mining and strip mining. These procedures remove most of the overlying material to expose the oil shale deposits, and are practical when the deposits are close to the surface. Underground mining of oil shale, which removes less of the overlying material, employs the room-and-pillar method.[39]

The extraction of the useful components of oil shale usually takes place above ground (ex situ processing), although several newer technologies perform this underground (on-site or in situ processing).[40] In either case, after access to the shale is gained, its kerogen is converted to synthetic crude oil and shale gas through the chemical process of pyrolysis. Most conversion technologies involve heating shale in the absence of oxygen to a temperature at which kerogen is decomposed (pyrolysed) into gas, condensable oil, and a solid residue; this usually takes place between 450 C (842 F) and 500 C (932 F).[18] The process of decomposition begins at relatively low temperatures (300 C/570 F), but proceeds more rapidly and more completely at higher temperatures.[41]

During the course of in-situ processing, mining-engineers heat the oil shale underground. These technologies can potentially extract more oil from a given area of land than ex-situ processes, since they can access the material at greater depths than do surface mines.[42] Several companies have patented methods for in-situ retorting. However, most of these methods are still in the experimental phase. The methods are usually classified as true in-situ processes (TIS) and modified in-situ processes (MIS). True in-situ processes do not involve mining the oil shale. Modified in-situ processes drill a large shaft to transport workers and equipment to the shale formation, fracture the deposit and crush it, and ignite the rubble.[43]

Hundreds of patents for oil shale retorting technologies exist;[44] however, only a few dozen have been tested. As of 2006, only four technologies were in commercial use: Kiviter, Galoter, Fushun, and Petrosix.[45]

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Jim Stewart
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« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2008, 07:52:06 AM »

DOE presentation that is probably the source of the article's information:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/archive/aeo05/conf/pdf/dammer.pdf

A critic's detailed issues with it:
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/11779

There are many thousands of Google search results on this topic.  Lots of debate.
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H3Jim
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2008, 08:06:08 AM »

and more environmental issues with using oil shale.


Oil shale mining involves a number of environmental impacts, more pronounced in surface mining than in underground mining. They include acid drainage induced by the sudden rapid exposure and subsequent oxidation of formerly buried materials, the introduction of metals into surface-water and groundwater, increased erosion, sulfur-gas emissions, and air pollution caused by the production of particulates during processing, transport, and support activities.[9][10] In 2002, about 97% of air pollution, 86% of total waste and 23% of water pollution in Estonia came from the power industry, which uses oil shale as the main resource for its power production.[68]

Oil shale extraction can damage the biological and recreational value of land and the ecosystem in the mining area. Combustion and thermal processing generate waste material. In addition, the atmospheric emissions from oil shale processing and combustion include carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas. Environmentalists oppose production and usage of oil shale, as it creates even more greenhouse gases than conventional fossil fuels.[69] Section 526 of the Energy Independence And Security Act prohibits United States government agencies from buying oil produced by processes that produce more greenhouse gas emissions than would traditional petroleum.[70][71] Experimental in situ conversion processes and carbon capture and storage technologies may reduce some of these concerns in the future, but at the same time they may cause other problems, including groundwater pollution.[72]

Some commentators have expressed concerns over the oil shale industry's use of water. In 2002, the oil shale-fired power industry used 91% of the water consumed in Estonia.[68] Depending on technology, above-ground retorting uses between one and five barrels of water per barrel of produced shale oil.[39][73][74][75] A 2007 programmatic environmental impact statement issued by the US Bureau of Land Management stated that surface mining and retort operations produce two to ten US gallons (1.58 imperial gallons or 838 L) of wastewater per tonne of processed oil shale.[73] In situ processing, according to one estimate, uses about one-tenth as much water.[76] Water concerns are particularly sensitive issue in arid regions, such as the western US and Israel's Negev Desert, where there are plans to expand the oil shale industry despite a water shortage.[77][78]

Environmental activists, including members of Greenpeace, have organized strong protests against the oil shale industry. As a result, Queensland Energy Resources put the proposed Stuart Oil Shale Project in Australia on hold in 2004.[
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Jim Stewart
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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2008, 07:34:24 PM »

Pat, The Congress of the United States (which includes both Houses) has known for decades that our future, and that of most of the nations who would desire to be World Leaders, is tied to oil.

It was the availability and the ability to refine crude oil which won WWII, the Korean conflict, Vietnam and now the 'War on Terror' in the Middle East which allowed us to try to end these conflicts.

For the record this is NOT a political post.

They have bent over backwards, caving in to the Environmental movement, to block the US (that's us) from drilling on our own lands and solving the problem while we're searching for alternative sources.

When King Abdullah, of the Saudi Kingdom, told us last week to "get used to it", referring to the high cost of crude to us today, I had some serious thoughts about what he might do with his country's resources.

There is no question that we need to change our habits. But I seriously doubt that it will be the result to the wishes of the Saudi's or the Elite of the world who would like to see us ride bicycles while they're riding around in their private jets and dumping their black water upon us.

This Nation has had too many sons and daughters who have shed their blood and given their lives to establish free nations around the world to be dictated to by Elitists who would offer their bodily discharges and advice to real Americans.

Bob

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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2008, 07:58:42 PM »

The Saudis seem to speak out of both sides of their mouth.  A few weeks ago they were concerned that high oil prices could lead to decreased demand for oil in the long run.  Now they say high prices are here to stay.

For years OPEC had a target price and they tried to increase production any time the price was too high above the target.  OPEC felt that high prices could lead to development of alternative energy and reduced need for oil.  I think they've decided that even if demand goes down a bit they'll still be raking in money.
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« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2008, 08:21:29 PM »

Not that I am at all a fan of OPEC, the Arab block or Saudi Arabia, but the way I have interpreted Saudi's responses in general, including that latest is this.  They are not having trouble filling orders.  In fact they have oil standing by to fill orders with, while our govt. is trying to push them to increase production.  Their response has been "why?" since they aren't having any trouble filling orders at the current levels.  Their position is steadfast that it isn't supply and demand but rather irresponsible bidding on the part of investors/speculators.  For once, and probably the only time in my life, I agree with them on this.

I believe that the prices we are paying are the result of nothing more than the bidding frenzy of too many speculators/investors clammoring to get in on the financial bloodfeast.  I think that is why the Saudi king made the snide comment that he did. In that same statement he reiterated their position that it wasn't their production levels driving crude oil prices, but rather our own speculative investors.  It is no secret that they hold our form of government and our society in contempt.  They are likely rather amused that our own system is strangling us.  Further they see it as affirmation that "Allah" is on their side.  Taking the "infidels" wealth away and giving it to them.
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2008, 09:16:19 PM »

I usually try to stay out of these discussion but sometimes I can't resist.  I'm sorry if I'm stepping on anybody's toes but the notion that speculators are somehow responsible for the sustained run-up in oil prices that we have seen over the last year is just plain silly and demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding about how a futures market and speculation in general functions.  Speculators can be responsible for short term movement in a market.  They are in fact essential to the smooth functioning of any commodity market, providing "paper" demand at times when there is no physical demand and releasing paper supply at points in the future.  The only way speculators could be responsible for a long term price move is if they were squirreling oil away in a bunker somewhere which I think we all agree is not happening. 

Commodities are different than stocks.  You can take a speculative position in a stock and hold it forever if that is your desire.  When you take a long commodity position you are contracting to take delivery of that physical commodity at a specified place and time.  When that contract matures you either sell the position or you find a place to store the commodity.  When you sell you wash out the demand you created when you bought the position so the net effect on the physical market is zero.  It may be good politics to blame oil prices on those evil speculators but it ain't happening.
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R.J.(Bob) Evans
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2008, 10:26:44 PM »

Bob,

First off, very true and thanks.  Second off.....US Steele, in around 70 or so, got their hands on almost all the ammonia(I think) in the country or at least enuf to drive the price.  They built oddles of tank farms to store the stuff on the banks of the Allegheny River and as they were a major producer, owing to the coke works, it didn't raise an eyebrow.  Well, one year they just started squirreling away a gazillion gallons of the stuff and the commodity price went through the roof.  When it got out of sight they sold future at the artificial price and raped the market.  I think that was when fiberglass boats prices quadrupled in one year, if any recalls.  My uncle was a forman with USS and his bonus was really sweet and he worked in Clairton Coke Works.  Horses mouth stuff here.

A few years later the Hunt brothers (might have the wrong name) gathered up all the silver and tried to do the same thing.  The fed prosecuted them for restraint of trade, profiteering and monoply infractions.  Now nobody owned stock in those birds as they were the HUNT BROTHERS and gazillionaires.  But they got ruined financially and spent time in the pen.  See, if they had been a corp with stockholders ta da ta da ta da.

I agree with you that the commodities markets are insulated from manipulation but they aren't beyond it and i didn't hear you say anything I wouldn't repeat with confidence.
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2008, 09:15:41 AM »

The one thing that bob forgot to mention --- this is a good thing --- is that for every contract that is sold there has to be a buyer and for every contract that is bought there has to be a seller ( corporation or person ) so for every dollar that is made by someone a dollar is lost by someone else ( there are of course commissions on these sales ) but no one wins without someone losing so to make this short to run up the oil prices and make a ton someone has to bet they will go down and lose a ton or visa versa.

Melbo
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2008, 09:20:34 AM »

I agree with your view of how the market speculation works and believe that is why the "bubble" will burst eventually.  But for now, due to inflation and the falling dollar, masses of investors are piling into the oil commodities market, competing with each other for it.  It is that daily competitive bidding that drives the market price up.  They buy with a small depost (margin) with confidence because the market price has been going steadily up.  They are certain that before the contract comes due, they can sell it at a profit no matter how high they have to bid it up today. 

They don't have to "squirrell it away" because the oil producers are keeping production in step with consumption.  Further they have publicly committed to raising production as needed to cover all orders.  Technically that should remove supply/demand worries from the pricing equation.  OPEC could glut the market and burst the bubble.  But why would they intentionally do that?  They are enjoying the unheard of profits being freely handed to them by the investors while also enjoying watching the financial destruction of a culture they hold in contempt.

When the bubble does burst, and I have no doubt it will, those holding the contracts will have a problem and take a loss.  Perhaps they are looking at it from a cost/benefit basis.  Make millions of dollars during the rise, then lose a few hundred thousand on the fall, still come out on top.
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2008, 12:15:27 PM »

The root cause of most of the pain you guys are feeling is your dollar.  It has been so strong for so long and now has fallen so far that you are feeling the pain in one year that the rest of us have experienced spread out over four years.  Fundamentally that is a good sign - your economy was strong enough to support the high valuation in the greenback and I have no doubt that you will stage a comeback.  You may not do it with the present crop of Presidential hopefuls but I'm not gonna go there.

And now back to busses - I'm about to go outside my bus and burn some fossil fuels through a fuel injected 350 in my ski boat.  You think fuel economy stinks in busses - try it in a high perf gasser running 32 MPH pulling my fat @$# on the water!  Its a good thing I'm out of shape so I can't go for very long.
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R.J.(Bob) Evans
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« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2008, 01:06:56 PM »

I have to agree with BOTN on all points. The speculators are making a bit..but not enough to drive the price of oil where it is. The Fed, and Thank you Alan Greenspan for all your manipulations...I'm sure Andrea is proud of you, is out there printing money as though it meant something and is saturating the market place with it.

And, God Bless him, George W. is searching for a legacy. Hey, don't start...I voted for him...twice!  But I have to admit for voting for Carter too.  Everyone can make a mistake or two.

The point is....the Market determines the value of a commodity. Unless someone is hoarding it, and we don't know about it, it will keep the price up. I watch the highways every day...and the railroads too. Motor Freight is going over to the RR's and the price of fuel is still up.

We know China has aspirations to take over Taiwan and will suffer long term sanctions if she takes any action. Israel is considering stopping  nuclear production in Iran...perhaps by force.

Stop and consider that there is more to a barrel of crude oil that gasoline and diesel fuel. There's the gammut of fuels and plastics and on and on.

Everyone who manufactures something has a stake in oil. Think about it.......

Bob
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