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Author Topic: eaton, rockwell, fuller transmission swaps  (Read 13831 times)
kyle4501
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2008, 11:18:19 AM »

I already get ~10 mpg in the last bus on the trip up from lower Florida. The 4501 I drove down from Delaware got ~9 mpg & it has low compression on 2 cylinders. The speed was ~65 mph. The motor didn't seem to like going any slower & would loose LOTS of speed on hills. Any faster & she got thirstyer!

My fuel mileage concerns is what led me to forgo the re-power to higher HP. A 'normalizing' or 'smoke' turbo might be considered, but only to maintain reasonable power in higher elevations.

My actual time behind the wheel is what is leading me towards more gears. Stop & go traffic really stinks with the stock gearing. The 9+ speeds will give me more choices. & like Dallas said, I'm using my bus differently than Greyhound did.

More than one of my 4501s needs a transmission anyway. And for those that don't know, the 4501 takes a special trans & If I have to make something work . . . I may as well look into other options. besides, some of these have already been raped pretty badly before I got them, so anything I do will be an improvement.

The manual transmissions that shift for themselves & don't have a clutch pedal sound nice to old knees that aren't what they used to be.



I'm not the kind of person who will follow what everyone else wants to do simply because that's what they are doing.

I want to know details of the actual swap & what is involved. I can then decide for myself what path I'll take.

Hell, if I had listened to the masses, I wouldn't have bought 8 4501s! I did sell 2 of them tho . . . Cry    seems when I get to 7, I run into more problems.  .  .  .  .
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boogiethecat
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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2008, 12:41:24 PM »

You're right about the smoke turbo... that was the one probably MOST important change I made to my bus as far as grades go.  Prior to that there were a number of black-belching 5mph-in-first grades that I'd take every year.  The turbo (set with a wastegate at 5psi) instantly turned those into 30mph no-smoke grades, regardless of what tranny I had.  If you're going to spend money to get up grades faster, do the turbo first.  NO tranny will help at altitudes!!!
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1962 Crown
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Don4107
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« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2008, 01:25:55 PM »

"I'm not the kind of person who will follow what everyone else wants to do simply because that's what they are doing."

Isn't that kind of the definition of a Busnut?  If we followed the rest of the crowd we would all be herding a S&S down the road.  More power, err make that gears to you.  Grin

Don 4107
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Don 4107 Eastern Washington
1975 MCI 5B
1966 GM PD 4107 for sale
1968 GMC Carpenter
kyle4501
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« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2008, 01:33:38 PM »

This thread was intended to have details of what is required & involved with doing the tranny swap.

Personal preferences will dictate what each owner does with their bus.
For example, I could have chosen a new bus shell with the latest power plant.  .  .  But I chose a 50+ year old derelict relic   Grin

If I was using logical thought processes, I most certainly wouldn't be converting an old bus! . . . . Shocked

boogiethecat,
True, but more selections can help at low speeds, for gradeability, & my mental satisfaction while driving  Grin  Shocked

Don 4107,
You said it!
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TomC
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« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2008, 02:10:53 PM »

Personally- and this from one who drove 21 years with nothing but 13 speeds-there's nothing equal to the pleasure of driving a bus with an Allison.  The off the line acceleration and ease of operation more than makes up for the loss of 1-2mpg in fuel mileage.  If I had the 4501, I would put in a HT740 and be done with it. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
boogiethecat
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« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2008, 05:54:10 PM »

Hey Kyle, you may be right... but for me getting RID of that 9 speed was the best thing I've done to the bus since the Turbo.  I absolutely do NOT miss all those gears, slow speeds or not. Not not not.

And Tom, yes yes yes. My Bluebird has an allison and I LOVE it.  If I could stick one in the Crown I just might.  But alas no overdrive. Oh well I'm happy with the 6 speed.

Amazing how each of us has their favorite combo of things when others of us hate the same things. That's what it's all about!!

G
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1962 Crown
San Diego, Ca
TomC
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« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2008, 10:35:47 PM »

You could change the rear end ratio again to accomodate the HT740.  But with the big oil pan that sticks down making ground clearance a problem, at least with your Crown, the 6 spd is probably the best.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2008, 01:25:49 PM »

All good answers; we are so lucky to have the options open for us to use in the pursuit of our unusual hobby of Bus Conversions.  I think the clutchless "ultrashift" trannies need a computer controlled mill also, as well as the computerized transmission.  Also, aren't the clutchless models of the modern type, with rather wide gears, expressedly designed for heavy 18 wheeler hauling and with/for the "modern" high torque, low rpm 4 stroke diesels?

If you could get such a transmission to fix into your 4501 and get it to talk to and work with the mill, you still might be faced with gear ratios not exactly to your liking.  Lots of low gears you would never use, except for creeping and backing.  Anyway, it may be moot since you may want to keep the existing mill you have, which, if I could guess, is a 8V71N or something very close.

Which brings us back around full circle.  You want more gears.  You want to keep the existing mill you have right now.  I loved my RTO-910.  However, like others have already said, maybe an Allision may be the way to go.  Yeah, once you get spoiled with an automatic, you will not want to go back to the stick, unless you are like me and kinda crazy and just like to shift for yourself.

Allisions are very quick off the line.  All you have to do is slowly floor the pedal and everything else is done for you.  Very cool.  My Roadranger was toad dead slow getting from 0 to 30.  People passed me all the time.  But, then again I was having fun playing heavy truck driver, PROGRESSIVELY SHIFTING and using every gear.  When I got tired, yeah, like others said, I just shift her 2, 4, 6, 8 then 9th. 

About the only other thing is that Roadrangers are kinda wide, flat and long.  I do not know if it would fit into your 4501.  U-joint needs and stuff like that.  They are also heavy; mine was about 650 pounds or sooss.  Some sort of shifter rod assembly will be needed.  My Crown had one (1) shift rod with about 50 grease zerts and carrier bearings.  You may need to figure out some way to reverse the shifter soos you will not have a backyards shift pattern.  Good luck and my two cents worth...again.  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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Sam 4106
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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2008, 05:34:05 PM »

Hi RJ,
Take some time to think about it and then please explain your statement, (Shift it "normally" and you'll have 10 speeds in reverse!). Take some time to THINK about it.
Thanks, Sam 4106
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1976 MCI-8TA with 8V92 DDEC II and Allison HT740
kyle4501
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PD4501 South Carolina




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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2008, 07:42:52 PM »

I used to want an Allison, but when I asked about that swap, I was preached to about the fuel mileage penalty & told to stick with a manual trans.  Shocked
(I also got some good info concerning what was involved.)

So, now I ask for details concerning what is involved in making the swap to a 9+ speed manual & I get mostly advice to do something else.  Roll Eyes

I want the details of what is involved with the 9+ speed swap & how they were dealt with. THEN I can make an informed decision on which way to go.

Thanks to those who have provided usefull answers.  Grin
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2008, 05:59:06 AM »

Hi folks.  Lots of good input.

As most of you know, I have a Series 60 with 10 speed AutoShift in my Eagle.  I went to the AutoShift, since I had to have an overdrive when I went from two stroke to four stroke.  I could not afford the Allison World tranny.

My acceleration is significantly slower than an auto -- not because of the shifting, but because I have to build boost with each gear change.

I love having all of the gears when descending a large grade because I can make the Jakes do all the work and keep them in the right rpm range.

Now to the AutoShift for mechanical engines.  If the AutoShift does not see the computer input from the engine (J1939 signal), it becomes an AutoSelect.  In this mode, you start with the clutch and then you accomplish the shifting by breaking the torque with a slight throttle reduction, then adjust the engine speed for the next gear.  When the RPM is correct the transmission will drop into that gear.  The transmission has a small monitor that shows the gear selected and which way the engine speed has to be adjusted.  I have not driven mine in that mode, but I would guess that a person would quickly learn how to drive the bus with minimal issues. 

In either mode, you can skip gears if you wish (I generally do not). 

You would still need to fabricate the wire loom (five wires plus one shielded twisted pair, as I recall).

The AutoSelect with a mechanical engine would let you eliminate the need for shifting rods and lots of clutch work.

The last I checked, the junk yard price has been going up.  I think I got mine for less than 3K (was an engine/trans combo purchase but they were separate).  Last I heard, they are at least twice that.

Jim

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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
Bob Gilbert
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« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2008, 06:42:10 AM »

Kyle, I am in the process of changing 4 to 10, one of the main problems is to use the 2 shift rods to shift the 10 speed. The way to take care of this is attain a trans cover and shift tower from a Eagle cable shift setup then use the rods in place of the cables. A 1" spacer will be required, I finished mine yesterday, alot of cutting with a jigsaw use lots of WD40. Other problems is flywheel and clutch cange from a single plate to a double pull type.

Another problem with a Eagle is the need to do some frame modification, on your cruser you probably won't need to do that, Greg Bush
installed a 3408 Cat with a 13 or 15 speed in his SC so there must be plenty of room

Good luck with your project, I will be glad to share my experiance. Bob Gilgert 05 Eagle.
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RJ
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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2008, 10:25:47 AM »

Hi RJ,
Take some time to think about it and then please explain your statement, (Shift it "normally" and you'll have 10 speeds in reverse!). Take some time to THINK about it.
Thanks, Sam 4106


Sam -

Good catch. . . I must have been asleep at the wheel when I made that comment.

I should have said if you shift it "normally", you'll be starting out in 10th instead of first.

The 10-speeds in reverse would pertain if you put a RH engine in a LH V-drive, or vice versa - a LH engine in a RH T-drive (like the Scenics).



Kyle -

Sorry if I hijacked your thread a little. . .

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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RJ Long
PD4106-2784 No More
Fresno CA
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« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2008, 05:05:01 PM »

Hi Kyle,

Can't really provide any mpg info, but i repowered my Scenicrusier with a 8V92TA mechanical and a Allison HT754. I left the original rear axle ratio in place. I understand it should be 3.70 to 1. I really didn't get too many miles on her with this repower before i blocked it level and did some major rework to the upper deck (lowered the floor). But it sure did take off from a standing start and would get up to speed rathur nicely. I did explode one of the u-joint yokes, was a new driveshaft and i managed to pick up all the parts and discovered a hairline crack in the yoke. Driveshaft and yokes were replaced at no cost and drove it home about 2 weeks later. There was some fab work required for the drivetrain, motor mounts and radiator mounts for the new radiator. Had a new radiator build which was about 40% larger than the original. There was a small amount of clearence work required to get the Allison in, but not much. Hope some of this helps.

Mike
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1955 GM Scenicrusier, 8V92TA & Allison 754. Totally rewiring all 12v systems and lots of questions.
kyle4501
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« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2008, 06:37:08 PM »

Mike, I'd like to see your setup one of these days.  Grin

RJ, I always appreciate your insight & I don't mind a little hijacking .  .  .  .  Shocked
I was just trying to do a better job of explaining my question/ request  Grin

Bob, Now that is something I could use a few pictures of.  Cool

Jim, the AutoSelect is definitely in line with what I want. That sounds promising. I think I could even talk Nancy into driving  Shocked  Grin  Cool

Please keep the ideas coming!!!
I know I'm not the only one who is taking notes here  Grin
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I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. (R.M. Nixon)
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