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Author Topic: I have decided to start the search for a series 50 for a repower  (Read 3875 times)
RickB
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81 MCI 9 smooth side 8V71 Allison 754




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« on: July 13, 2008, 11:05:58 AM »

Where should I look and what can I expect once I start the repower? Any ideas... suggestions?
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H3Jim
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1995 Prevost H3-41, series 60, B500 Allison




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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2008, 11:12:48 AM »

One source, although I don't know if they will talk to a private individual or not.  Portland, Wholesale Truck Parts 1-800-547-1315  They do a lot of takeout engines.

Here is one they have right now.  What part of the country are you in?

   $5,750 OR 
     
Series 50 DDEC III, 315HP, Jake Brake, Super Condition. 
WHOLESALE TRUCK PARTS INC
Phone: (503)288-6333
Fax: (503)288-6337
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 11:18:19 AM by H3Jim » Logged

Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

Travel is more than the seeing of sights, it is a change that goes on, deep  and permanent, in the ideas of living.
Blacksheep
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2008, 11:48:24 AM »

Your making a big mistake if you don't talk to Jack or Jerry Campbell who frequent here and there often! They have recently done a couple!
BS
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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2008, 04:31:44 PM »

RickB,do a lot of research before buying a series 50 engine parts are getting hard to get.In El Paso the transit system is replacing all series 50 engines with the Cummins 8.9 (not that they are better) but for the parts supply call your DD dealers talk to the shop foreman and service writer and ask questions about the engine.The balance shafts and the oil pump are going to fail the question is when a little of your time may save you some big heartaches
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rv_safetyman
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Jim Shepherd


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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2008, 05:52:27 PM »

Rick, as has been mentioned, do a lot of homework.  Most of the Eagle folks go for the Cummins M11/ISM.  They are much easier to find.  It fits pretty easily in an Eagle without raising the bed.  Not sure about all MCIs.

Brian Diehl did a Cummins ISM Eaton AutoShift in an MCI9.  He has done a fantastic job of documenting his project:  http://home.earthlink.net/~diehls0792_1/BusSection10.html

That page contains the information he posted here.  The following are a few of the threads (so that you can get a flavor of the replies).  These are only a few of the threads:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=6005.0
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=5082.msg47035#msg47035
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=8873.msg87910#msg87910
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=5041.msg46589#msg46589
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=4402.msg40490#msg40490
and my favorite:  http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3470.msg31270#msg31270

I think Brian is on the road right now, but he may have some input when he returns.


The biggest issue you will face is the gearing.  You will not be happy with the 8V71 gearing unless you like to drive at 60 MPH.  The four strokes want to run in the 1300 to 1500 range.

You will also have to do the electronics conversion.  That is not a huge issue if you have detailed manuals.

You will note that both Brian and I made the conversions because of issues with our two stroke engines.  There are lots of threads that really ask a person to really think about an engine swap and how you will justify it.  You will almost certainly not justify it on fuel mileage, but with fuel costs what they are today, the extra mileage makes you feel better Grin.  In my Eagle with the Series 60 I got 7.7 MPG for a bit over 40K miles.  This trip I slowed from 68 to 63 and have gotten 8.4 over so far (1600 miles).

If your engine is shot, you can make a financial argument for changing the engine.  If you do the work, you will be in the $15K range if you change the transmission (you really should go to an over drive trans).  If you pay someone to do the work, you will be about $40K into the job. 

My bus project pages (see signature), I have documented some of the non-obvious sub-projects in the conversion.

Sorry to ramble, but this is not a project for the faint of heart Shocked

Jim

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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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Jerrry@nc
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2008, 06:08:33 PM »

I have just done this in Jan. It is the best thing that I have done to the bus. I was getting 4.5 with the 6/92 to 9.2 with the 50. DD has all the parts on hand here in Charlotte NC.because most are the same as the 60.  But I don't think I will need them. The only thing is that I really have to change the oil because I have not Really used any in 6000 miles Not one qt. I have 325 Hp@ 1100 Ft # tor. With the 102A3 used one rad. on the left side and the right side has the air cooler. Now we did put in a 6 speed and a 4/12 .                                    And you do not have to rise the bed to do this in the eagle. Talk to Jack Campbell
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 06:16:00 PM by Jerrry@nc » Logged
makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2008, 06:55:29 PM »

RickB,talk to the guys that repair the 50 series every day,I just spent 4 days in El Paso they have 8 city transit bus buses with the 50 series in the shop now,you can not get a block which is destroyed when the balancers break and John Deere refuses to manufacture any more heads for the 50 series. DD wants that engine gone there was a reason it was taken out of production but you be your own judge.Here is a phone number for Stewart and Stevenson in El Paso speak to Edmond in service he will tell you the facts 1-915-791-4202.I am not bad mouthing DD I worked for the people for 40 years and I know a little about the 50 series. FWIW the 50 series we installed for Greyhound in the MCI's 9 of the engines were replaced in less than 200,000 miles 

Rv_safetyman you can buy low clearance valve covers for the 50 and 60 series engine to get the extra clearance the 50 and 60 series are the same height and width

   
Good luck
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 07:42:19 PM by makemineatwostroke » Logged
TomC
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2008, 08:27:32 PM »

I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND YOU NOT USE THE SERIES 50!!!  While it sounds good on paper, it is a tall block engine, parts are getting harder to find, and the gear train to run the oil pump with the two balancers running off of the pump are weak and break often.  Please reconsider using a Cummins ISM that can easily get 400hp and 1550 lb/ft torque (the Series 50 maxes out at 350hp and 1150lb/ft), the ISM is used in trash trucks with the Allison HD4060 world transmission, so it is easy to find in a junk yard; the Cummins ISM is still being made and is going to be made at least till 2010;  it is considerable lower than the Series 50, although about 8" longer.
Another engine I would use is the Cummins ISL at 425hp and 1200lb/ft torque.  It is about 500lb lighter than the Cummins ISM or the Detroit Series 50 or 6V-92TA, and you can use the lighter and cheaper Allison MD 3066 or 3000HS behind it.  The Cummins ISL can be equipped with a Jake brake.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2008, 09:31:50 PM »

Wow funny this should come up. Just last week I asked a family member (thru marrage) who works at Stewart Stevenson down in Houston what the chances were of getting our hands on a good used "take out" 50 or 60 series engines He laffed hard and said there are some local used truck parts places that snap up the 60 series ones before they hit the shop for the swap. He then went on to say that there just wasn't anyway for anyone to get the 50's as they are required by Detroit to bust the blocks and take pics of it and the engine serial # to send into Detroit to prove it's been done before they can get paid! He said exatly what Mike & TomC said above about them being a poor design and that DDC was trying to get rid of them as fast as possible! FWIW Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

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RickB
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81 MCI 9 smooth side 8V71 Allison 754




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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2008, 08:33:16 AM »

Well, as usual you guys got me thinking.... The only motor that would seem viable is the series 50. It would go in easier than any other electronic engines. It would almost double my gas mileage. It would be the least costly to accomplish. But then there's that pesky design flaw. The thought of changing my motor is daunting to say the least,  but making major structural changes to fit a cummings or a cat just makes it seem like I'd be better off driving my 8v71 into the ground. I really would like to make an affordable change but when guys start saying it would cost 25-40k I can't comprehend who among us, with kids college and retirement plans, has that kind of money for a repower. It seems that making those kind of investments into wants not needs completely removes all viability of owning a bus at all. We travel and make a large part of our income in our bus, but always with the assumption that even with todays diesel prices, at the end of the day the math says that it is still cheaper than flying, renting a car, getting hotels, eating at restaurants, etc..  but when you start overloading the equation with 40-50k repower investments in buses that are clearly on their way out in todays "green at the expense of reason" national creed, it all adds up to the possibility that one day the only bus conversion company in business will be Marathon. I can't tell you how much the idea that only the uber rich will one day own buses sickens me...It seems everytime I get up the nerve to start looking, I find a miilion reasons to not do this, to take the 40 mile an hour hilltops and the inability to run my bus air whenever I want and write them off as inconveniences, not worth changing. Frustrated and a bit discouraged here guys...
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TomC
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2008, 08:53:04 AM »

Rick-I'm sure you've read about me turbocharging and adding air to air intercooler to my 8V-71.  While I had the injectors increased from 65-75 to make 375hp and 1125lb/ft torque, you could keep the 65 injectors, and use the turbocharging as a way to get better fuel mileage.  Plus any driving in altitude would maintain power a keep smoke to a minimum.  I highly recommend you look into it, possibly calling Don Fairchild in Bakersfield, Ca. for advise.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
kyle4501
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2008, 09:02:44 AM »

There is also the option of adding a turbo to your existing 8v71 & limiting the boost to 5psi.  Shocked
You don't have to rebuild the engine to turbo specs if the boost is low.  Cool
There are some who have done this & love the results. - You just have to keep in mind what you have & not ask too much from it.  Smiley

I can see a few thousand to make using it more fun, but I can't see the numbers from increased efficiency justifing a repower of an otherwise good running motor.

Just one more opinion . . .  Roll Eyes
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luvrbus
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« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2008, 09:05:29 AM »

Rick, i am going to add my 2 cents here there are several of us doing a 10,000 mile round trip 2 of us have 8v92 engines and 1 has a series 60 that cost him 40g to have installed.He is getting 1 mpg better than the 8v92. Jim said he was getting 8.4 with his 60 I get 7.2 on my 8v92 the other guy is not doing as well he is getting 6.1 with his 8v92 but using Jims numbers and averaging out the fuel at 2.69 per gal Jim saves about 6 cents a mile my cost today is 65 cents per mile.If you use your bus like Jim does and the 2 stroke blows I would consider a change then because it will cost you 10g or more for a rebuild   have a good day
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Don Fairchild
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« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2008, 10:48:48 AM »

guys, I have access to 18 1997 50 series engines from new flyer's. They are  used runners set at 315 hp. they go for $ 4,800. ea You may be able to find them for less money if you look real hard

hope this helps

Don
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H3Jim
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1995 Prevost H3-41, series 60, B500 Allison




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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2008, 12:35:18 PM »

Don,

Do you have any sources for a 14 liter series 60 pre EGR?
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Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

Travel is more than the seeing of sights, it is a change that goes on, deep  and permanent, in the ideas of living.
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