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Author Topic: Motor cooling on a Scenicrusier  (Read 2280 times)
Michael_e
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« on: July 25, 2008, 09:23:16 AM »

First - CHAZ, i didn't want to highjack your thread by focusing on a Scenicrusier.

Second - I'll try not to sound too stupid with my question...

On the back engine door of Scenicrusiers is a window that has shutters. There was an air valve on mine, but it was disconnected. I don't know where the air line went or how it was controlled. But it was there for a reason. To help remove heat from the engine compartment, couldn't a person hook up a control valve to open those shutters and add some sort of auto radiator electric fan to quickly get the hot air out, thus reduce overall engine temperatures? Maybe add some sort of engine compartment temperature gauge to know how hot it gets back there? I'm sure that turbo and exhaust piping add a lot of heat when going up a hill.

Mike
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1955 GM Scenicrusier, 8V92TA & Allison 754. Totally rewiring all 12v systems and lots of questions.
Chaz
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2008, 09:48:39 AM »

Thanx Mike!  Smiley  Your concern is appreciated.
Wish I could help you on your issue. I'm even LESS versed on Scenics than my Buffalo!!  Cheesy But my guess is that the shutters are for helping warm the motor up when it's cold out. I would have thought that they should be open when it's warm out. Was it fastened open?

  Chaz
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roadrunnertex
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2008, 10:09:16 AM »

Scenicruisers / Buffalos?
Chaz P8M4108A has a 8V/71 non turbo engine so that's not a heat problem.
The Scenicruiser had the same style engine 8V/71 non turbo also but on the Scenicruisers you had the condenser for the A/C system on the right rear corner of the engine compartment adding heat to the area on a summer day.
The rear engine compartment access door had a opening with louvers but they were always open and if I recall they did not open and shut with the radiator shutter system.
The problem I think that Chaz is having is the extra heat from the V730 automatic transmission and Chaz is heading in the right direction by installing a air to oil heat exchanger on the V730 cooling system.
Hope I did not confuse the over heat issue for you Chaz.
jlv
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Chaz
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2008, 10:20:03 AM »

Not at all Tex, I appreciate all your insight!!

But, on the scenic, are those shutters open all the time when to bus is operating, or did they sense the heat and open accordingly?  (I'm just curious now. Smiley)

Thanx
Chaz
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Pix of my bus here: http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/Skulptor/Motor%20Coach/
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roadrunnertex
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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2008, 11:12:34 AM »

After talking to Derf our noted Scenicruiser historian in Oklahoma City,OK.
He stated that the louvered opening on the rear engine compartment door were not connected to the Shutterstat system for the radiator.
You could manually open them in the summer or manually close them for winter operation.
jlv
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kyle4501
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2008, 11:32:30 AM »

I'd put a temp sensor back there & see what it's doing before adding more gadgets.  Grin

Also, is the lower full width flap still there below the rear bulkhead? If not, you'll get lots more benefit from replacing it than a small fan on the rear door.

Is your condenser still back there? Or has it been replaced with a generator like most do . . . .



My guess is that if you install an exhaust gas temp gauge, you'd be able to control the engine temp easier by keeping the EGT in an acceptable range.  Grin
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Hartley
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2008, 12:50:03 PM »

That 600 pound radiator should keep it cold no matter what kind of louvers
you have. You need to remember they originally had 2-engines back there!

Too bad nobody saved one of those setups as an example.

That would be an interesting "GREEN" project. One engine for cruising
and both for get the heck outta my way times....

( Yeah.. I know the combiner wouldn't do that...GM go figure? )

Or Diesel for in town and Gas Turbine or electric for highway... Hmmm...

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kyle4501
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2008, 01:20:06 PM »

& the 2 engine setup had rear mounted radiators, a fluid drive connecting the engines, a 3 speed transmission & a 2 speed clutch. No wonder the mechanics didn't like them.  Shocked

A lot of stuff was changed in the early 60's with that first rebuild that installed the 8V71 & 4 speed.  Cool
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Don Fairchild
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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2008, 02:46:00 PM »

And some of them they put 12V71N's in, I have seen three in the Bakersfield area and worked on two of them. I under stand that conversion was done in Canada some where.

Don
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Michael_e
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2008, 03:31:43 PM »

Gad Zooks, a 12V71!!!!! Was there some sort of extention on the back? I can't imagine that fitting in there without something sticking out the back. Wait a minute, are you seeing if i'll bit on this whopper?? Is this April 1 all over again?

Mike
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1955 GM Scenicrusier, 8V92TA & Allison 754. Totally rewiring all 12v systems and lots of questions.
tekebird
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2008, 03:39:21 PM »

I do not know of any 12v71 scenicruisers that had a 12 in them while greyhound had them.

there were mack powered Scenics, Mack powered 4104's, a MAN powered Scenic and a few other repower test beds.

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roadrunnertex
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2008, 04:14:18 PM »

I bet that the 12V/71's was in the MC-6's that Greyhound was going to us to replace the Scenicruisers.
They came from MCI new with the 12V/71 engines.
jlv
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Don Fairchild
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2008, 04:41:18 PM »

JL, Doug, Mike I have seen these first hand and like I said I have worked on two of them. JL, I have also worked on the MCI's with the 12V's in them I know the difference. When I talked to the owners too of them did not have any info but one of them said the engine was put in some where in Canada, as to grayhound having any at that time I don't know,only saw the 8V71's when they were hounds, but then I have not seen every bus out there. Mike there's a lot of room in the back of these things.

Don
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luvrbus
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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2008, 04:49:56 PM »

Don, I saw one with a v 12-71 at Laughlin not long ago with CA plates and one with a 3408V Cat a monster of a engine and still had plenty of room
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TomC
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« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2008, 04:57:26 PM »

Nothin quite like the sound of a twin turbo 12V-71 with straight pipes!!.  But in this day and age of $5 fuel, I can think of a few alternates to the twin turbo 12V-71 that would put out the same power but get at least twice the fuel mileage.  Still- the 12V-71 does sound cool.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
roadrunnertex
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« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2008, 06:01:15 PM »

After the Scenicruisers were sold out of the Greyhound fleet it's no telling what kind of a power plant the different owners have installed in these old Scenicruisers.
When Greyhound had Marmon-Herrington rebuild the 980 remaining Scenicruisers in 1961.All of the Scenicruisers  received the 8V/71 and the 4 speed Spicer transmission.
After the rebuild the Scenicruisers went on in Greyhound service for another 10 to 15 years it was a record for a coach in Greyhound service.
The old Scenicruisers are still a head turner when you see one that's out on the road today.
I know of a few that have been restored back to Greyhound colors and the owners of these coaches say every where they go people will come up and say I remember these old buses when they were in Greyhound service.
Try that with a MC-9 or a MC-12 it looks like any other bus out on the road today.
They all look alike a shoe box on wheels!
lv

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jackhartjr
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« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2008, 06:47:35 PM »

John, I wonder what they did with all of the 471's and that fluid driver tranny?
Hope you and yours are doing GREAT!
Jack
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Jack Hart, CDS
1956 GMC PD-4501 #945 (The Mighty SCENICRUISER!)
8V71 Detroit
4 speed Spicer Trannsmission
Hickory, NC, (Where a call to God is a local call!)
roadrunnertex
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« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2008, 07:12:17 PM »

Good question
I have heard that a lot of the old 4/71's went out in the oil field for powering various equipment but this is just here say on my part.
The truth be known I bet Greyhound sold them just for core/scrap charges just to get rid of those old worn out power packs.
The first Scenicruiser that I got to see after the rebuild was in the summer of 1962 and my dad was driving for Greyhound and he made it a point to show me a rebuilt Scenicruiser.
I was impressed with the rebuild and the 8V/71 powerpack made it a lot nicer for maintenance.
That was 46 years ago where did the time go? Huh
jlc Tongue



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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2008, 07:34:12 PM »

Jack that set up wasn't made for Greyhound only they are still around in the west Texas and New Mexico oil fields and the gulf coast marine industry 2- 471 0r 2-671 with the Twin Disc or Allison torque converters and the quad 671 Detroits with a torque converter how would you like that in your Scenicruiser
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jackhartjr
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« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2008, 07:47:22 PM »

Actually MakeMineATwoStroke, i would love to have one to convert back to original, course I need to finish the one I am on now!LOL
I understand someone in California did a conversion back to original 2 engines, that is hearsay though.
Thanks for the input!
Jack
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Jack Hart, CDS
1956 GMC PD-4501 #945 (The Mighty SCENICRUISER!)
8V71 Detroit
4 speed Spicer Trannsmission
Hickory, NC, (Where a call to God is a local call!)
Michael_e
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« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2008, 08:37:38 PM »

Don, I've got a Scenicruser, serial - 278. I've got it repowered with a 8V92TA and maybe it's just me, but it seems like that takes up a fair amount of room. How much longer is the 12V compaired to the 8V? On the ones you worked on with the 12V was that center adjusting post in the rear of the engine compartment removed to make extra room???

Mike
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1955 GM Scenicrusier, 8V92TA & Allison 754. Totally rewiring all 12v systems and lots of questions.
tekebird
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« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2008, 08:43:59 PM »

all the V-71 series engines share the same Piston/Cyl Diameter

with that logid the 12 v should be 50% longer than the 8v
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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2008, 09:08:49 PM »

FWIW the 12v71 is 60 inches from fan to flywheel , the 12v92 is 68 inches and the 8v92 is 44 to 49 inches long depending on the engine spec
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TomC
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« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2008, 09:42:58 PM »

Tekebird-that logic sounds good on paper, but remember that you have the gear drive on the rear and the waterpump/thermostat on the front so it isn't an even 4 cylinders for the 8V.  If you have a 44" 8V, the 60" 12V is a little more than 50% longer, but then who's counting?  If I had a Scenicruiser, I'd put in a 12V-71N with 60 injectors.  These would get you 420hp with 1150lb/ft torque, and resonable fuel mileage.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
kingfa39
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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2008, 09:37:07 AM »

dont know much about the senecruiser , i rode one on a long trip when they still had the twin engines, it was the quietest thing you could imagine and very fast, had a wreck in KY when it hit a 48 plymouth that was dead in the road throwing it about a half a block, nobody hurt, was nightime, the only visable damage was a broken headlight on the bus, made me a GM fan from that day on, too bad they couldnt have corrected the problems with them. i think it was the best bus ever made ( just an opinion))
The bus was a 1955 model, trip was Tampa to detroit witha single stop in lousville i think for fuel
Frank allen
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Bob Belter
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« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2008, 12:44:50 PM »

Ahoy, Busfolk,

The 12V-xx ---  Sounds.
 
Years ago, the A$S Metals Co. in Castroville CA had a metal 'beater-thrasher' with a 12V-92
engine, and very heavy driven wheel and flail assembly.

When that howling monster started and slowly wound-up all that 'stuff', it sounded like the sound track from a science fiction movie!!!

Enjoy  /s/  Bob
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