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Author Topic: 6V92T problems  (Read 7652 times)
NJT5047
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2008, 08:17:10 PM »

My SWAG....could you tell whether the water was coming in from the airbox?  Or was it coming from  inside the cylinders above the pistons?
If the water is running into (and around) the cylinders from the airbox, you may have an aftercooler that is leaking. 
If the water's coming from above the piston, that would indicate heads have problems. 
You may luck out here yet....if you resolve the water leaks and get the engine running again,  may want to consider keeping the coach close to home for a while. 
Or, pull the pan and check the affected rod bearings.   With all the clatter of a diesel, some unusual noise could get by. 
I'm hesitant to tell you to pull anything, at least until you determine where the water is coming from. 
The aftercooler could put water on both LH and RH sides. Whatever it is, you got a good leak going.
Take another look and see if the water is running out of the airbox.   If so, pull the turbo and blower for access to the after cooler.   If water is running in through or around from the airbox, again, the aftercooler might be the cause. 
If the water's trickling down inside the cylinder walls and running out the outside ports, the heads are likely at fault.   That would indicate a major mojo overheat.  And likely other damage related to the overheat.   
Failed liner "O" rings could dump water into the pan.  Since you found no water in the pan...??
Later style "O" rings are pretty resilent. 
Not sure how much access you have to the ports on your Eagle, but use mirrors or whatever to get a good look into and across the ports.  See if you can determine the pathway the water is taking as it runs out. 
I went back and read some of your data and see that you have an '89 Eagle.   That's probably a DDEC II engine.   I suggested looking for an MUI (Mechanical Unit Injection)...don't do that.   Not good advice on my part.  You'll need a DDEC II replacement engine.   
The only way to use an MUI (reasonable way) would be to use the complete powerplant and transmission from a similar coach.   6V92TA/HT740.  Then you'd have to install an air shifter and throttle.  Too much work.  Your DDEC is desirable when it's working correctly. 
You don't want get into trying to make your ATEC transmission work with an MUI. 
Sorry for the confusion.
But, sadly, DDEC II RH takeouts are not as common as MUIs.   And they are a little more expensive when you find one.  They were manufactured from late '88 till about '93.  Most of the GLI MC12s on the market had 6V92TA DDEC IIs and probably some IIIs.  Some of those coaches also had S50s...just a few...   
The DDEC engine is good for you.  The top-end is much easier to disassemble and reassemble. No racks...no gov, very cool.
Post what you find on the source of the water.   
My next recommendation is to move along with this diagnostic phase as quickly as possible. The engine has water inside that's rusting rings and such as we discuss this issue.  The quicker the engine is returned to functionality, the better.
Good luck Van, JR


 
 
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2008, 09:03:49 PM »

Van,

Everything I have read here seems like golden advice.  One thing stands out as missing and that is the "order".  It seems that all agree that if you have had hydraulic lock you may have terminal lower end damage that cannot be dealt with except thru a NON costeffective overhaul.  No water in the oil was a good deal for you. Draining the oil seemed the absolute first step to inspecting the lower end.  Had you found water in the oil I think the advice is to replace that motor.  You didn't so I think that the next step is to drop the pan and check the bearings.  If you don't have a galled or "hammered" bearing I think that only then should you proceed.  I personally would not restrict my inspection to "only the rods on pistons that showed water leakage".  Replacing bearings seems to be a periodic maint item with the DD so doing it any time should not be a concern so much as a good idea.  Of course, if they are in good shape I think you can simply grease them and re torque but you need a board expert to tell you that is OK.  Only then would I pull the heads.  You said that the cylinders looked good so if all goes well to that point you might have a salvageable/repairable motor...and praise be!  I would only install reman heads with matched injectors and new everything.  You get a stripped head and start transferring stuff across you may be transferring the problem to the new head.  I am confident that if I had some rented muscle and "DA BOOK" I could pull this off with no more than 15 or 20 calls to Don Fairchild or other expert.  Most important asset was Da Book.

I think you should have had your coolant checked for carbon monoxide when she heated up at idle.  Most say that a DD won't even come up to operating temp at idle....just slobber...oil that is.  I would wait till I had a motor running and knew I had cooling issues before I launched into the cooling system as you had real good reasons for even a primo cooling system to heat up.  Don Fairchild seems to be the gold standard for DD advice and rebuilding.  I would get my heads (and as much advice as you can carry) from him and after I got that bad girl running I would visit him for an inspection and such.  You don't know what you don't know and for an expert to say "you have no more issues" you are way ahead of you drawing that same conclusion.

Get some idea of what the repair will cost in TOTAL as soon as you can.  Checking the bottom end will cost little and if you can get away with heads you will know what you need and shop prices.  If it is scorched you will still know what you need.

I hope this discussion is helpful in some way.  I am sorry for your trouble.  If I were close I would help in any way I could.  Please let us know how the bottom end looks.  You will get more and better advice as the project progresses.


John
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van
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2008, 09:24:23 AM »

Hi ,back again .I should have been a little more clear about what engine is in the bus,the bus is a 89 serial #1EUBN6A16KB070287, according to craig hanloh @eagle it came equipt with a 6v92t mechanical engine which it does have(has throttle cable)and is silver in color will try to retrieve the engine numbers off the data sticker on the engine later . once again my sincere thanks to all who have responded to my postings it is a reliefe to have some info as to the possible causes in the absence of the manualsof which I plan to have real soon .at best from what I could observe thru the inspection plates yesterday the water was leaking into the cylinders above the pistons and dripping out thru the holes not alot on the rh side and maybe just a little more on the lh side when i topped of the coolant system with water.was able to remotely jog engine around to look into each cylinder port with the covers off ,after which I did drain the watter from the coolant system via the lower radiator hose and with the fuel still shut off and plates still open spun the ie over to expell y more water that I thought would be left in the engine which I think I achieved ( no more water tickling out thru the cyls)water did not appear to be leaking from around the out side of the cyl sleeves just from the inside at the top some where ,also after draining all the water out and buttoning the plates back up ,then pulled down the oil pan and found no trace of water there , I don't know why But had a sigh of relief at that moment Felt good for what it was worth(six pac of beer would have been nice too ha ha)it was like having one of those marlboro moments.I would like to give a brief history of the bus while I have had possesion of it .Picked up the bus initially from Carmi Ill,(southern Illinois)did the walk around insp as usual,did do a lot of research on eagle busses how ever regarding the skeletal structure and the chasis assblys ,maint and inspection .found the structure of the thing to be in pretty darn good shape considering the rust problems that seem to plague eagles more than others ,only a few non suport rails under one of the bagaggcompartments on the right side of the coach checked out all fluids every thing normal and lo major leaks after the road test.drove home with my new pride and joy,did seem to be missing the torque I was anticipated climing up the grades on the freeways about 3.5 psi on the dial for boost was what was registerd on the clock(that issue was taken care of after I got Home)turned out turbo out let coupler hose was disinegrated,fixed .lmost 20 psi now (incredible torgue now whoo hoo)headed home on I40 lost a fuel pump,3 days and 1 new pump later on the road again ,getting off at king man az and making the grade out of laughlin nv.bus had just barely enough power to get out of its own way temp rose toabout 200 degrees  and finally made it home at about 30 mph virtually no power Collapsed fuel supply line in engine comp fixed that problem .drove bus one more time to do the dept of DMV thimg,stopped a B B coach toshow gary and get some pointers on the mechanicals(is that a word). thats when we noticed the blown radiator while topping of the water in the coolant system( start pos on the  switch wasnt working) Well whatta ya know niagra falls ,the fuel pump was the first repair expense,ok not the most expensive thing I have ever bought 260.00 to be exact not to mention the service truck to help pressure prime the engine after I installed the new pump(thank god took enery tool I thought I would need to work on this thing with me)seems the norm for a neew recore is arount $1000-1400 gary on the other hand had afew model 10 radiators in good condition and god bless 'em offer me one for dirt cheap ,which was my first project now I love rollin up my sleaves and getting dirty always have always will,gives me purpose got the darn thing in(heavy S>O>B)lined up new shroad fan still have to make the extended  mounting bracket but the job went well and as expected.This is where my story begins filling the coolant system for the first time after new rad install is when i noticed the trickle of water out of the right side air box vent line (left side line must be clogged ,cause there was eventualy more water on that side) and the engine was hard to turn over ,eventually did get it fired up after draining the water out of the system,I know that git er fixed ,have to try to raise the extra moolhaa for parts (heads gaskets etc) but boy the first ime ya come across a situation like this it comes on real fast like t boning a car on your harley after tey just blew a red light,and yes i've had 4 wrecks in my life time just like that ( never do get usto it),but it happens to the best of us.not till I read the post AS USUAL did I realize that I was NOT ALONE and there where others too having a bus moment(non marlboro of course) such as my self and I need to collect my composure the knolege and resources needed to pull this off.and get the critter running right,my plan from the git go was to find a good platform from which to build on first make it dependable ,then use the darn thing whilst converting it and making it livable .Seems like either money ,time or resource availability become the little gemlins that will twist your cookies enough to make ya crack,but realizing this early on .can save ya alot of heart ache and only helps ya become more in tune and roficiant in trouble shooting any thing  thanks guys for the ear the thoughts advice and kind gestures ,somthing which will always be passed down to others I might encounter down the road  , will keep every one posted of any future updates(or mishaps ha ha)that come up.My ultimate goal now is to be able to have more than enough power so I can put up a sign that reads PASSENGERS ARE REQUESTED TO REFRAIN FROM SCREAMING Above the drivers seat or some thing like DO NOT OPEN WINDOWS AT SPEEDS IN EXCESS OF 100 MPH . Just my thoughts ,ha ha ha ,bye.

very thankfun
van

P.S. do they make wheelie bars for bus's
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 09:39:31 AM by van » Logged
JohnEd
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2008, 11:38:40 AM »

Van,

You say you only saw 200 degrees.  Your problems don't appear to have been in the motor when you first bought her.  I suspect that your temp gauge is reading low as 200 shouldn't have trashed both your heads....215 or 220 should...according to what i read.  That "heat gun" is turning out to be an indispensable tool for evaluating the accuracy of gauges and trouble shooting cooling problems and HF has them for cheap.

Good luck and thanks for keeping us informed,

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
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van
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« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2008, 07:35:05 AM »

hi john ,thanks ,well as things progress slowly with the engine repair it gives me ample time to get after the other things that I know will become issues down the road such as electrical terminal panels.I do seem to remember there were gauges that would read temps and voltages partially,intermitantly or not at all at any givin time probably due to the corrosion on the terminal stud posts ,as i've read on some of the elec problems posted(no brake lights,etc)these problems seem to deal with rusted over conections ,now seems to be the time to deal with it before It becomes an issue .have already dealt with the alt ,batt ,starter cables which was a mess.my temp gauge sending unit was spray painted over which is now cleaned up but the sensor right next to it has me baffled in that it only has one wire attached to it and 3or 4 dangling next to it not conected is this the shut down Huh
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 07:45:33 AM by van » Logged
van
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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2008, 08:55:51 AM »

just made a phone call to bb coach gary says he has a 6v92t silver he'd let me have for $500.00, he's notshure right now if it was a mech or elec he also assumes that it ran,came with a bus he purchased a while back ,my question is if it was an elec model can it be used for a mechanical set up provided it runs and how to find if it will run properly? hey cliff are ya home yet give me a call buddy if ya can
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 08:57:26 AM by van » Logged
buddydawg
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« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2008, 08:59:57 AM »

Hang in there, looks to me like you have gotten some good advise.  I don't think I have seen many things that the guys and gals here can't help with. 

Just be careful with the looooong paragraphs.....   Grin Grin Grin
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Brandon Stewart - Martinez, GA
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« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2008, 09:33:31 AM »

Hang in there, looks to me like you have gotten some good advise.  I don't think I have seen many things that the guys and gals here can't help with. 

Just be careful with the looooong paragraphs.....   Grin Grin Grin

Ya tell me about it! LOL! Next thing ya know someone will use your identity to send a nasty msg to someone giving you corrective critasism, and then a big ol' nasty can of worms opens up! Until it is discovered what happened! Need I go farther? I don't think so! I think the parties involed know who they are, and would be well advised not to keep it up. Or things could start to get ugly!  Grin  BK  Grin
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van
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« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2008, 09:56:30 AM »

hey,ya know it's kinda hard typin this stuff from inside the engine compartment where i've been livin for the past week,momma said don't come outta there till it's fixed (thought I hit the enter button) gotta go she's busted me again not workin.Ha Ha
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« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2008, 10:13:37 AM »

Van,

I can't help with the purpose of the wires next to the sender.  Someone here will reply to that, I'm sure.  Needs an answer though, you are right.  Did you get a copy of the DD engine manual on order.  I would suggest the more expensive paper version but I am old school.

I noticed something about your engine that I wanted to comment on.  Your exhaust plumbing has no dark sections around the joints.  I see lots of DD's with this condition.  I have no other explanation than it is oil in the exhaust that would indicate a worn engine.  That would indicate an "end of life" condition to me.  Yours isn't there yet from appearances.

I think I would pass on a $500 engine the condition of which is unknown. 

Did you get the bearings off yet?  Inquiring minds and all that. Grin

Good Luck,

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2008, 10:45:35 AM »

I would not pass on the engine for 500.00 the turbo is worth that much and if it is not froze better yet
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van
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« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2008, 10:55:34 AM »

i haven't gone near the bearings yet think I will wait to view the manuals so I know what i am getting into,am headed over to bb coach to inspect garys engine,
thanks
van
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NJT5047
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« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2008, 01:29:28 PM »

The gizmo with the red top and two terminals looks like an alarmastat sender.  It could (was?) be attached to a shutdown device. 
Probable that someone disconnected the unit after it shut them down. 
May be one on both heads. 
Check the switch for continuity...of none, connect the two wires that attach to the switch together, turn on the ignition master and see what happens.  You should get an overheat alarm, light, or the fuel supply sol will shut off.  Or maybe all of the above?
Your engine has suffered an insult greater than 200* I'd bet.
Take the old $500 buck engine.  At the least,  you have cores, and you can 'practice' on the core. 
The short answer to your question about using a DDEC engine in place of an MUI.  The answer is no.  Too many parts missing on a DDEC engine.  Some parts could be used, but not the complete engine.
Still, the scrap value is close to what you're paying for the unit. 
When you buy your next bus, look for such wiring disconnects.  These are often a sign....a bad sign! 
Be really careful when handling a complete engine...they are about 2500 lbs, top heavy, and should be bolted to a pallet or something maintain a position. 
BTW, you'll have to drop your starter to get the pan off the engine.   Make sure that the battery ground is disconnected before disconnecting the starter wiring.
The starter is heavy too...be don't get mashed hands or body parts. 
JR
 

 
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.”

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« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2008, 03:45:52 PM »

I don't how involved it is but the PO of my fathers bus had a DDEC rebuilt into a MUI. Anyone know more about what it takes? Cost?
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« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2008, 12:01:03 AM »

Bad O rings on the cylinders will leak water into the oil pan.  Either a cracked cylinder head, leaking injector tubes, or just plainly a blown head gasket.  Whichever way, the heads have to come off.  Good Luck, TomC
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