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Author Topic: Can't get the 6v92 to shut off!  (Read 4506 times)
Chariotdriver
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« on: August 07, 2008, 05:45:18 PM »


  That is without pulling a wire on the "skinner" valve that powers the shutdown solenoid.
 took it on a trip last night to see some live music in Alabama and when I get there I cannot shut off the bus with the toggle switch up front in the cab.
  I had to go out and pull the wire off the skinner valve to bring it to a halt.
 
 Where should I start looking to see what is amiss here?
 Also got my wife to start driving it on the way back from Alabama to Mississippi and I forgot to tell her to watch the fuel and we ran out 10 miles from home! She says that it is losing
  Had my brother take my truck to fill up the bed tank with diesel and bring it out to us.
 We pulled the fuel filters to fill up and also the top cap on the primary filter housing to top it off.
 Since our generator is getting it's fuel from the primary filter housing we decided to run the generator first to try to pull any fuel up to the housing etc first to try to keep the air out of the lines on the 6v92.
  It cranked right up and it never missed a beat.
  Now we know that 1/4 stands for Empty!
 
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Phil Webb
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2008, 06:11:49 PM »


  That is without pulling a wire on the "skinner" valve that powers the shutdown solenoid.
 took it on a trip last night to see some live music in Alabama and when I get there I cannot shut off the bus with the toggle switch up front in the cab.
 

Any chance you bumped or otherwise switched the rear run switch in the back to rear control?
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Chariotdriver
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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2008, 03:02:49 AM »


   I have not seen any controls on this bus for rear control, it is a 1983 Eagle 10.
 No toggles that I've noticed back there at all.
 
   It seems that I remember when I left the main toggle upfront in the run position and went to the back to remove the wire from the skinner valve that when I touched it back to the terminal that it would not activate every time. Might be a intermittent valve problem?
 It should switch and have a air release sound each and every time I touch it to the spade as long as the
run switch is in the on position right?
 Thanks.
 Phil
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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2008, 09:26:20 AM »


   I have not seen any controls on this bus for rear control, it is a 1983 Eagle 10.
 No toggles that I've noticed back there at all.
 
  It seems that I remember when I left the main toggle upfront in the run position and went to the back to remove the wire from the skinner valve that when I touched it back to the terminal that it would not activate every time. Might be a intermittent valve problem?
 It should switch and have a air release sound each and every time I touch it to the spade as long as the
run switch is in the on position right?
 Thanks.
 Phil

OK from what little exposure I have with Eagles the rear switch is usually located on the rear bulk head about eye level and almost dead center . But that is not gospel, and you should always consult an expert before following any of my advice! Now as for having "bumped the rear switch into the rear start position". That should not have any effect on shutting it down! Because in order for it to start and run the front switch needs to be on too! Now for the last question. Yes as long as there is air, it should charge or release every time you connect/disconnect it! FWIW Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2008, 09:44:32 AM »

Now as for having "bumped the rear switch into the rear start position". That should not have any effect on shutting it down! Because in order for it to start and run the front switch needs to be on too!

Don't know on Eagles or others, but on my RTS, if the rear switch is in the "Off" position or the "Rear Run" position, the front switch has no effect.  Only if the rear switch is in the "Front Run" position does the front control switch have any effect.
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Chariotdriver
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« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2008, 10:42:27 AM »

Plenty of air so no problem the.air .
I suppose that I should check for power being sent to, or taken
Away each time the master switch is flipped from off to start.
I'll also look for a rear control.

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Phil Webb
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« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2008, 10:53:36 AM »

Plenty of air so no problem the.air .
I suppose that I should check for power being sent to, or taken
Away each time the master switch is flipped from off to start.
I'll also look for a rear control.

Engine stop solenoid should have power in run position and no power in off position.  Jack
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« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2008, 11:22:50 AM »

Plenty of air so no problem the.air .
I suppose that I should check for power being sent to, or taken
Away each time the master switch is flipped from off to start.
I'll also look for a rear control.

Engine stop solenoid should have power in run position and no power in off position.  Jack

Thanks for the info, will look into it.
Phil
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Phil Webb
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« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2008, 12:10:11 PM »

OOPs I wired mine the other way did I do real bad?

I have a button to start it and a button to kill it I was not thinking about the solenoid holding it in the run position. 

(But I can only kill it with power and if I lose power it will not die going down the road?)
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Had small engine fire and had no 12 volt system at time of purchase. 
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2008, 03:57:49 PM »

most of the model 10 Eagles only have a rear cut off for the starter so it cannot be started from the front when you are working on it. that is the only rear control in the books shown in the diagrams. if it wont shut off with the front switch but does when you pull the wire off the skinner valve then the switch is bad or there is something back feeding into the wire. if you cant figure it out Phil call me and we can go through the diagram and see if we can figure it out.
steve
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Chariotdriver
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2008, 04:02:19 AM »

most of the model 10 Eagles only have a rear cut off for the starter so it cannot be started from the front when you are working on it. that is the only rear control in the books shown in the diagrams. if it wont shut off with the front switch but does when you pull the wire off the skinner valve then the switch is bad or there is something back feeding into the wire. if you cant figure it out Phil call me and we can go through the diagram and see if we can figure it out.
steve
Will look into that and if I cannot figure it out I will call,..
 Thanks Phil
 P.S. Will be next week before I get the chance to look at it.
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Phil Webb
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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2008, 07:24:50 AM »

Phil you can buy a all in one shut down for the engine from DD where the skinner valve is not needed it has the electric solenoid and the air valve all in one the unit has 2 bolts to attach to the top of the governor housing a air line and a hot wire and you are good to go  it cost about $80 a lot cheaper than a skinner valve if yours is bad   FWIW   

Bob if your unit is the all in one you have it wired correctly it takes power on to kill the engine or you could have the electric only shutdown
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 12:16:25 PM by makemineatwostroke » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2008, 09:27:00 AM »

Bob if your unit is the all in one you have it wired correctly it take power on to kill the engine

Is that momentary power on to kill the engine?  Do you use a momentary on switch?  If not, won't this drain the battery when the engine is off?  Jack
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« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2008, 11:11:52 AM »

Jack it is momentary power if you have a key switch I hook it up to the acc side for killing the engine or use a momentary switch
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Bob Gil
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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2008, 12:22:53 PM »

What I have is a solenoid that is wired to a push botton like you would use for a starter button.  When you push the button it activates the solenoid and kills the engine.

I did not think of it being wired the other way.  I guess I was wanting to avoid having the draw on the electrical system of it having to be engaged to keep the engine running.

Now that I think of it if I lose 12 power I will not be able to kill it (the other way if you lose power it will die) with out going to the back and turning the gov by hand is that a bad deal? 

I am learning more every time I read another post it seams like.  Hope mine bus is not backward too much from the rest of them. 

I guess that is what happens when a bus keeps changing owners and them redoing things that they don't know much thing about.

Will it be OK the way it is?  It is working for now any way, from the rear.

I was wondering how it had been set up to kill I did not see any way to kill the engine the way I was wiring it and did know what I was going to do until I did it this way.  I am planing on putting a starter button and kill button on the dash area and just use the key to control the power, including the power to the starter button.  Not sure if I should key the power to the kill button or not.  What do you think?
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Had small engine fire and had no 12 volt system at time of purchase. 
Coach is all 110 w 14KW diesel genrator
makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2008, 12:34:32 PM »

Bob, you have the standard shut down for a 6v53 even the 07 Eagle with 6v53 uses that system I don't like all the bottons because if they are close you are going to hit the air shut off sometime if it has a botton instead of a coverd switch
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« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2008, 12:54:34 PM »

OK I will think about that when I mount the button.

But I don't have a air shut off just the solenoid and an 12v clyinder to pull the kill.

I will make sure I don't mount the buttons where they can be easly hit.  I am sure the starter would not need to be engauged if the engine is running either.
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Fort Worth, Texas where GOD is so close you don't even need a phone!

1968 GM Bus of unknown model 6V53 engine (aftermarket) converted with house hold items.

Had small engine fire and had no 12 volt system at time of purchase. 
Coach is all 110 w 14KW diesel genrator
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« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2008, 02:10:01 PM »

OK I will think about that when I mount the button.

But I don't have a air shut off just the solenoid and an 12v clyinder to pull the kill.

I will make sure I don't mount the buttons where they can be easly hit.  I am sure the starter would not need to be engauged if the engine is running either.

You could use a shrouded button similar to MCI 9 starter buttons.  They have the button surrounded by a metal shield.  You have to push the button down the "well" to activate it. 

I do like covered switches better for things that would do harm or substantial inconveneince.  That way it takes two actions to use the switch making it less likely to be done accidentally.
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Chariotdriver
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« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2008, 09:05:06 AM »

Finally got a chance to look into why I cannot turn off the engine and have not figured it out as of yet.
  I did pull the "master" switch out of the dash to see if a wire broke off and it had not until I messed with it. (one more thing to fix)
 I'm assuming that there is a rely betweem he master and the skinner that actually controls the skinner since the master could not handle that much through it directly. I assume that this is true.
 Got out the prints and tried to run it down but am having problems.
 Any guidance where to look?
 I would like to see if there is a relay stuck in the fromt electrical panel, or the rear panel.
   Steve had offered to walk me through it but I can't find his number.
 Steve with the Marine repair that is.
 Thanks,. Phil
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Phil Webb
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« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2008, 09:29:17 AM »

hey Phil
my number is 954-270-2628 cell
shop is 706-874-1224
call me this evening and we will run through it
steve
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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2008, 09:39:51 AM »

sorry I thought you had a 15
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 09:42:25 AM by makemineatwostroke » Logged
Chariotdriver
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« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2008, 10:04:29 AM »

sorry I thought you had a 15
  Yes, it's a Model 10, I may have mentioned that it has a 15 front I believe.
 Phil
   Still have not been able to see any "Starter" switch in the rear engine compartment.
 I did see a vertical tube with 2 wires coming out of the top but nothing else that I can see that it does.
 It's located on the right side of the panel in the back.
 
 
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Phil Webb
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« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2008, 10:09:06 AM »

Phil according to a sales invoice I have on a model 10 the rear start was a option for $58.75 so not all will have one
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« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2008, 10:13:02 AM »

Phil according to a sales invoice I have on a model 10 the rear start was a option for $58.75 so not all will have one
A HA!!
 The old "It's and option" trick huh?
 Thanksfor the heads up,..
 Phil
 
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Phil Webb
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2008, 03:18:59 PM »

phil
as I said before when every one mentioned the rear start, mine does not have it, only a starter cut out.
I will try and call you shortly to go over it.
steve
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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2008, 06:51:43 PM »

my "15" has the rear starter on  the left (drivers) side just inside the door and mounted on the rear wiring box.  it does have a stop switch and a start button, and it will start regardless of the front switch position (see my embarassing questions last winter).  it does shut off if the front switch is not on as soon as the air builds to about 30 lbs.
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Tom
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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2008, 09:14:15 PM »

my "15" has the rear starter on  the left (drivers) side just inside the door and mounted on the rear wiring box.  it does have a stop switch and a start button, and it will start regardless of the front switch position (see my embarassing questions last winter).  it does shut off if the front switch is not on as soon as the air builds to about 30 lbs.


 Tom sounds like yours is like Cody's his will start from the rear with out anything up front on too!  After it was fixed so that it would start from front or rear instead of a screw driver across the terminals on the solenoid! LOL! (ask him and Libby about how I know this sometime! LOL!)
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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2008, 09:24:07 PM »

Tom all Eagle are that way if equipped with factory rear start my 05 is that way, makes you search for a problem when it shuts downs been there and done that after changing fuel filters
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 09:26:45 PM by luvrbus » Logged
Chariotdriver
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« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2008, 08:14:11 AM »

    Steve at Competitive Edge marine and I looked over the prints and got a plan to check the Skinner valve Relay first to see if it was stuck.
  I pulled the relay #5 at the back electrical panel and never checked with my meter and could never see any control voltage to the relays coil whether the master switch was in the on or off position.
 So I pulled the relay and ohmed it out to see if the coil was burnt out, or if the contact are welded together.
 I pulled another realy next to it to see if it was the same and it was as far as testing it with the meter.
   
   It was,..
 
 I then thought that the 2 relays could be the same unpowered, but the skinner relay could be stuck in the non powered position.
 I swap the 2 relays and it seems that it was the skinner relay was stuck as the other realy allowed me to shut it down with the master.
 Yes, yes!!
 Thanks for all the help and especially Steve for the phone time,..
 Phil
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 08:32:37 AM by Chariotdriver » Logged

Phil Webb
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« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2008, 06:46:14 PM »

 This is weired.
 I replaced the skinner valve relay in the rear of the bus with a new one and it will not shut off.
 Anyone know of the next relay upstream from here leading to the Master switch ?
 I think with all the talk of power to shut it off, power to keep it from shuttiong it off, I'm kinda confused as to how the
Eagle is wired to work and not sure how to check it out.
 Just thought that I would pull the relay that works the skinner valve relay and troble shoot that one.
 Thanks,
 Phil
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Phil Webb
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« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2008, 07:52:32 PM »

phil
there is no relay upstream. the master switch runs back to the skinner valve and is fed through the normally closed side. the relay opens to shut down the skinner valve if the auto shut down is activated. power is fed to the skinner valve to keep the bus running. power is removed to shut down. if it wont shut down pull the wire on the skinner valve. if it shuts down it is in the wiring. if it keeps running the skinner valve is stuck or the the air valve is stuck. I will be around the house working on mine tommorrow (wendsday) if you need more help just call.
954-270-2628 cell
steve
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« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2008, 10:01:00 PM »

If the suggesting by compedgemarine is still not the problem, then you may have a froze or binding piston inside of the air cylinder that won't push the shut-down lever. There is a spring to retract the plunger pin. With engine shut-off, remover air line from cylinder to test it with shop air for movement.

If it OK, then check for gap between retracted plunger (no air) pin to shut-down lever. it should not less than 1/32" gap & not more then 1/16" gap. If need to adjust the gap, loosen the lever's clamp bolt to rotate lever to spec.

If it OK, then check solenoid for clicking sound with off & on power to it.

If it OK, then remover air supply line from that solenoid to hear & feel for air coming out good.

Let us know what your finding.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

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« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2008, 04:39:49 AM »

phil
there is no relay upstream. the master switch runs back to the skinner valve and is fed through the normally closed side. the relay opens to shut down the skinner valve if the auto shut down is activated. power is fed to the skinner valve to keep the bus running. power is removed to shut down. if it wont shut down pull the wire on the skinner valve. if it shuts down it is in the wiring. if it keeps running the skinner valve is stuck or the the air valve is stuck. I will be around the house working on mine tommorrow (wendsday) if you need more help just call.
954-270-2628 cell
steve

    It does shut down when I pull the wire off of the actual skinner valve.
   It also shuts down when I pull the relay out of it's socket.
  It will not shut down when I flip the master switch. Side note to this, the Master switch is not broken internally as i have removed the instrument panel and the wire has been removed to verify that this switch is not in the "locked ON" position.
 I assumed that the skinner relay must have had a "pilot" relay upstream since I thought that the "master" switch could not handle ALL the power that might be required to keep the bus functioning. I guess that it handles a smaller load than I had imagined.
 Phil
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« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2008, 05:11:21 AM »

phil
there is no relay upstream. the master switch runs back to the skinner valve and is fed through the normally closed side. the relay opens to shut down the skinner valve if the auto shut down is activated. power is fed to the skinner valve to keep the bus running. power is removed to shut down. if it wont shut down pull the wire on the skinner valve. if it shuts down it is in the wiring. if it keeps running the skinner valve is stuck or the the air valve is stuck. I will be around the house working on mine tommorrow (wendsday) if you need more help just call.
954-270-2628 cell
steve
So if I understand this correctly.
 If it takes power to keep it running, and it keeps running when I turn off the master switch, then the wire leaving the master and terminating at the control side of the relay is somehow getting power where it was not before.
  It seems that it must be a skint wire that is shorted to power as I cannot imagine another way for it to get power when it should was not getting power before.
 
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« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2008, 07:38:50 AM »

hey Phil
call me on my cell if you can 954-270-2628
steve
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« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2008, 01:39:09 PM »

 Okay,
 I think that Steve got me on the right track as he asked if I had done to the wiring potentially, in that area before I noticed the problem.
 All I had worked on that day was the LED wiring and could not for the life of me remember doing any thing else, until today I looked up at the rear
electrical panel and found out that there was a new jumpe between 71 and 91. Oh, now I remember seeing that bad jumper and decided to replace it with a new one, since I was on a roll and all.
 I go out there today to do some more trouble shooting and was wondering if i plugged it on the correct spade.  I look in the book and see that the jumper is a diode instead of a simple wire.  So I'm thinkning that this might be the problem somehow as when I disconnect the jumper I can shut it down and when reconnected, it will not allow shutdown.
 Finally,so now I need to find out what type of diode it is so that I can replace it with a new one.
Anyone want to take a stab as to what that diode is doing in there?
 Phil
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« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2008, 03:57:55 PM »

Phil
if not mistaken that is part of the "no charge" circuit for the alternator. it run up to the dash through a resistor, etc, etc. I have yet to find anything that can tell me exactly what any of the multitude of diodes in this thing are. I had some of similar size around here that I replaced a couple of bad ones on mine with and everything seems to work fine. If I can find the number for them I will let you know.
If I had to guess when it was running the alternator was back feeding the system.
now you know why I asked so many questions. LOL.
steve
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« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2008, 05:30:34 PM »

Our MC-8 uses diodes to prevent the low oil & hot engine circuits from back feeding to the other warning light when activating the automatic engine shutdown. Jack
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