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Author Topic: Cummins ISM Oil pan help  (Read 3647 times)
Brian Diehl
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« on: August 11, 2008, 07:00:22 PM »

I am trying to find a cheaper alternative than a new "low profile"/"bus" oil pan for my ISM.  I have the original truck oil pan and it is deep.  I worry some day I'll hit something with it and loose all my oil.  I talked to Cummins and there are two different pans that will work for me with the sump in the rear "rear sump".

1)  3895954  -- $1700!
2)  3161489  -- $1500!
The part numbers are Cummins parts numbers and prices are from the parts guy.
These pans are about 4 inches shallower than my current pan and those are the 4 inches I want/need.

There has to be some of these on the used market for a reasonable price.  Does anyone know of a good source to try?   

I'm not spending that kind of money!  If I can't find a better alternative I may consider building some sort of skid plate.  I really don't want to do that either as it only adds weight and is really not the right solution.

Thanks for any help you can give me
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2008, 07:09:37 PM »

Brian if you can get us a stock pan from a junk yard (doesn't have to be good, mostly just there). Then give us the dimensions you want your new pan to be like. I got a guy who will build you one, that will A) work as good or better than stock. B) be stronger. C) look a whole lot "kweler". D) a heck of a lot cheaper! (at least 1/2 or more)

If you can shoot some pics & basic dimensions to me I can get a ball park figure for ya! Mark does some amazing things with metal! (of all kinds)
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
luvrbus
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2008, 07:29:53 PM »

Brian, try ABC Bus in Grand Prairie Tx when I was there they had a couple of the engines with a rod through the block that had the shallow oil pans  972-206-1110 I have no idea whom to speak with there about a pan    good luck
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NJT5047
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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2008, 07:48:48 PM »

Brian, is that a 'cast' oil pan?    I reckon it's a sign of 'terminal' age, but that seems incredibly expensive for a stamped steel oil pan.   
If you modify the pan, don't forget the pickup.  It has a placement dimension that must be maintained.   Measure the distance that the pickup extends from the flange so you can maintain this distance with the modified pan.   
Is your oil cooler satisfactory for 5 (or therabouts) fewer quarts of oil? 
Some engines have the capacity to pickup oil from either end of the pan?? 
Will there be any windage issues with a considerably shallower pan? 
If it was mine, a skidplate would be looking good about now. 
The engine has a low oil pressure shut-down, so the engine wouldn't be fried.  Still, no one wants to have to worry about, or dink with a hole in the pan either. 
A skidplate would protect the pan and the weight of a substantial skidplate would be insignificant on a bus.
As long as the skidplate is properly rolled (so it cannot snag on anything) and securely anchored front and rear, at the worst, it would dent the bottom of the pan...IF something big was backed over.  Unlikely to damage, or allow damage, to the pan when driving forward.   The differential will clear the way.  Backing over something seems the most hazardous to your pan. 
Another possibility would be to add some 'nerf' bars to the undersides of the frame so that they drag just before the pan.   
If you scribe a line from the lowest portion of the back bumper (or bottom of the hitch) to the bottom of the tags, anything below the line could be damaged if the bumper is grounded.   Those items above the line have a low probability of damage.   
FWIW, JR
 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 06:42:34 AM by NJT5047 » Logged

JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
luvrbus
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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2008, 08:23:11 PM »

I don't know where dealers get the price for oil pans but a friend of mine paid $700 for one for a 60s used
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2008, 10:01:02 PM »

Brian, is that a 'cast' oil pan?    I reckon it's a sign of 'terminal' age, but that seems incredibly expensive for a stamped steel oil pan.   
If you modify the pan, don't forge the pickup.  It has a placement dimension that must be maintained.   Measure the distance that the pickup extends from the flange so you can maintain this distance with the modified pan.   
Is your oil cooler satisfactory for 5 (or therabouts) fewer quarts of oil? 
Some engines have the capacity to pickup oil from either end of the pan?? 
Will there be any windage issues with a considerably shallower pan? 
If it was mine, a skidplate would be looking good about now. 
The engine has a low oil pressure shut-down, so the engine wouldn't be fried.  Still, no one wants to have to worry about, or dink with a hole in the pan either. 
A skidplate would protect the pan and the weight of a substantial skidplate would be insignificant on a bus.
As long as the skidplate is properly rolled (so it cannot snag on anything) and securely anchored front and rear, at the worst, it would dent the bottom of the pan...IF something big was backed over.  Unlikely to damage, or allow damage, to the pan when driving forward.   The differential will clear the way.  Backing over something seems the most hazardous to your pan. 
Another possibility would be to add some 'nerf' bars to the undersides of the frame so that they drag just before the pan.   
If you scribe a line from the lowest portion of the back bumper (or bottom of the hitch) to the bottom of the tags, anything below the line could be damaged if the bumper is grounded.   Those items above the line have a low probability of damage.   
FWIW, JR

JR all good and valid points! Of course though even though I didn't point this out the first time, the guy I'm talking about builds everything and I mean everything for some of the big boys in NHRA! I mean some of the top fuel dragsters come from his shop! Some of them one piece at a time, and some the complete car minus the paint job! (of course they have those super light weight composite bodies delivered to him as he is a METAL man!)
I have seen him build some wild oil pans, headers, manifolds, and frames/chassis galore! (more chassis than anything!)

When our shops were next door to each other I watched EDDIE HILL and the Pennzoil crew roll in around 6-7 PM and back out around 6 AM headed to INDY for the US Nationals! I later asked Mark What they had done all night and his mild response was "slammed a new chassis together, because their old one was too twisted to align!"

Another time I watched as he completely tuned a funny car chassis (don't remember who's as the trk & body went elsewhere for a day or so.)

Ask Cody or Dallas this guy is a perfectionist! Cody and I watched one day as he eyeballed a bar for a roll cage on a prostock car. Took it over to the chop saw cut it for length, then snipped the end off it (notched it) and took it back to the car and laid it perfectly in place before welding it!

Best of all, for some reason he likes me and does stuff for me "reasonable" all the time! Of course the running joke we have is he always asks "me how soon do ya need it?" And my response is always "yesterday, if I needed it tomorrow I'd come by in 2 days! LOL!"
He just shrugs his shoulders, shakes his head and does it!

So if ya want shallower but still as much or more capacity, or baffled or what ever tell me what ya want and it will be done! I seen him build pans that the headers (he built them too) had to come off before the pan could. And the pan had to come off before  the starter could!
And watch out when he's building a set of headers, words and pipes are flying everywhere. But when he's done they are perfect!

Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
rv_safetyman
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« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2008, 01:41:33 AM »

Brian, just kind of skimmed the responses, so I might have missed some things. 

A shallow oil pan, at least on a Series 60, is designed to hold the same amount of oil.  You can see a comparison of deep and shallow pans on my project page (signature).  I would think the same is true with a Cummins pan.

Remember, you will need a shallow pick-up tube for the pan.  I would guess you can make one, but it would be better to use a Cummins unit , since a failure will not be pretty (huh Clifford?).

I had to relocate my dip stick, but more for the bus vs truck layout.  However, on a Series 60 the various ports have different heights and you have to be careful of calibration.  When you do yours, be sure to find out where Cummins wants the oil level  In a Detroit, it is 1 inch below the pan mounting service.

All of this coming to you for Gent Belgium {vacation,  Grin}.

Jim
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 01:43:39 AM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
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Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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luvrbus
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« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2008, 06:22:15 AM »

 quote

Remember, you will need a shallow pick-up tube for the pan.  I would guess you can make one, but it would be better to use a Cummins unit , since a failure will not be pretty (huh Clifford?).

Right Jim $12,800 worth of ugly
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 07:16:12 AM by luvrbus » Logged
NJT5047
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2008, 06:44:43 AM »

Brian, post a pic of under the rear of your bus.   I'd like to see what you're working with.
I'll look on your website and see if anything shows the underside...
Thanks, JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
Brian Diehl
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2008, 07:15:39 PM »

Here are two views of the oil pan.  The bus rides about 3" higher when the tag axle bags are full of air.
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2008, 07:24:09 PM »

I called ABC down in TX and they did not have anything.  So, I called ABC up here in MN and am currently waiting for a guy to call me back with a "yeah" or a "nay".

I'd like to modify my pan by removing 3" from the bottom and then add capacity along the slope to make up for the loss of capacity. 

All the Cummins bus pans still hold 9 gallons and that capacity is mandatory according to my guy at Cummins.  The difference is the deep sump pans have a low mark of 7 gallons while the shallow pans have a low mark of 8 gallons.

Here is a PDF of the shallow pan:

« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 07:53:23 PM by Brian Diehl » Logged
Brian Diehl
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« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2008, 07:26:01 PM »

Brian if you can get us a stock pan from a junk yard (doesn't have to be good, mostly just there). Then give us the dimensions you want your new pan to be like. I got a guy who will build you one, that will A) work as good or better than stock. B) be stronger. C) look a whole lot "kweler". D) a heck of a lot cheaper! (at least 1/2 or more)

If you can shoot some pics & basic dimensions to me I can get a ball park figure for ya! Mark does some amazing things with metal! (of all kinds)
Grin  BK  Grin

Bryce,
Thanks for the offer.  I'm going to hold out on this for now until I've exhausted all my options. 

I gave Nimco a call today, but just got Nick's voice mail.  I doubt they have one, but maybe he knows of someone who might have one.

-Brian
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NJT5047
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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2008, 07:42:39 PM »

When aired up, is the pan still below the pumpkin?  You oughta get more than 3" of rise out of a fully aired up bus?   Are your airbags reaching full height?   Can you adjust your rear drive axle leveling valves to gain a couple more inches.  My 9 grows about 5" with aired up.  Adds a lot of space under the bus.   
The way that the pickup tube is mounted inside the pan, you could smash the H out of it and it would still flow oil...as long as the pan isn't 'holed. 
Changing the pan would clearly be the easiest way to resolve your problem. 
The pan looks like a stamped steel unit.   If so, I'm with Bryce in this one, any quality racecar shop can shorten the pan.    They could add volume back by punching out the sides.  The pickup will be easy to work with...since it's pan mounted, just cut it  offf to replicate the distance to the pan floor. 
The racecar guys may be a good solution...they can even install little windage doors so that the oil doesn't flow to one side or the other in long sweepers.  
Cannot believe a stamped steel pan is bringing $1700 bucks...no wonder trucking companies are stressed!
Watching with interest, JR 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 07:52:54 PM by NJT5047 » Logged

JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2008, 07:47:53 PM »

Quote from: Brian Diehl
Bryce,
Thanks for the offer.  I'm going to hold out on this for now until I've exhausted all my options. 

I gave Nimco a call today, but just got Nick's voice mail.  I doubt they have one, but maybe he knows of someone who might have one.

-Brian

Brian no problem, I just know what it's like to be looking for the proverbial "needle in a haystack" (I own SETRAs) and no one having it. Just let me know I already printed your pics and copied the description for a reference just in case.
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
Brian Diehl
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« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2008, 07:50:57 PM »

When aired up, is the pan still below the pumpkin?  You oughta get more than 3" of rise out of a fully aired up bus?   Are your airbags reaching full height?   Can you adjust your rear drive axle leveling valves to gain a couple more inches.  My 9 grows about 5" with aired up.  Adds a lot of space under the bus.   
The way that the pickup tube is mounted inside the pan, you could smash the H out of it and it would still flow oil...as long as the pan isn't 'holed. 
Changing the pan would clearly be the easiest way to resolve your problem.   

Watching with interest, JR 

The tag axle bags leak down, but the drive axle bags hold air indefinitely.  So, the bus is riding about 2-3" lower than it does when the tags are aired up.  Yes, the pan does just barely hang down below the lowest level of the differential.  When I put new bushings on the radius rods I reset the ride height to factory spec.  I don't think I'd be much inclined to change it much.  I think shortening this pan or getting the correct pan are really the right approaches.  I've put 8000 miles on this setup and in normal driving don't think it would ever be an issue.  However, we do go some "interesting" places and I do have to pay attention to make sure I protect that pan.
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