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Author Topic: Cummins ISM Oil pan help  (Read 3881 times)
Brian Diehl
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« on: August 11, 2008, 07:00:22 PM »

I am trying to find a cheaper alternative than a new "low profile"/"bus" oil pan for my ISM.  I have the original truck oil pan and it is deep.  I worry some day I'll hit something with it and loose all my oil.  I talked to Cummins and there are two different pans that will work for me with the sump in the rear "rear sump".

1)  3895954  -- $1700!
2)  3161489  -- $1500!
The part numbers are Cummins parts numbers and prices are from the parts guy.
These pans are about 4 inches shallower than my current pan and those are the 4 inches I want/need.

There has to be some of these on the used market for a reasonable price.  Does anyone know of a good source to try?   

I'm not spending that kind of money!  If I can't find a better alternative I may consider building some sort of skid plate.  I really don't want to do that either as it only adds weight and is really not the right solution.

Thanks for any help you can give me
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2008, 07:09:37 PM »

Brian if you can get us a stock pan from a junk yard (doesn't have to be good, mostly just there). Then give us the dimensions you want your new pan to be like. I got a guy who will build you one, that will A) work as good or better than stock. B) be stronger. C) look a whole lot "kweler". D) a heck of a lot cheaper! (at least 1/2 or more)

If you can shoot some pics & basic dimensions to me I can get a ball park figure for ya! Mark does some amazing things with metal! (of all kinds)
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
luvrbus
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2008, 07:29:53 PM »

Brian, try ABC Bus in Grand Prairie Tx when I was there they had a couple of the engines with a rod through the block that had the shallow oil pans  972-206-1110 I have no idea whom to speak with there about a pan    good luck
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NJT5047
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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2008, 07:48:48 PM »

Brian, is that a 'cast' oil pan?    I reckon it's a sign of 'terminal' age, but that seems incredibly expensive for a stamped steel oil pan.   
If you modify the pan, don't forget the pickup.  It has a placement dimension that must be maintained.   Measure the distance that the pickup extends from the flange so you can maintain this distance with the modified pan.   
Is your oil cooler satisfactory for 5 (or therabouts) fewer quarts of oil? 
Some engines have the capacity to pickup oil from either end of the pan?? 
Will there be any windage issues with a considerably shallower pan? 
If it was mine, a skidplate would be looking good about now. 
The engine has a low oil pressure shut-down, so the engine wouldn't be fried.  Still, no one wants to have to worry about, or dink with a hole in the pan either. 
A skidplate would protect the pan and the weight of a substantial skidplate would be insignificant on a bus.
As long as the skidplate is properly rolled (so it cannot snag on anything) and securely anchored front and rear, at the worst, it would dent the bottom of the pan...IF something big was backed over.  Unlikely to damage, or allow damage, to the pan when driving forward.   The differential will clear the way.  Backing over something seems the most hazardous to your pan. 
Another possibility would be to add some 'nerf' bars to the undersides of the frame so that they drag just before the pan.   
If you scribe a line from the lowest portion of the back bumper (or bottom of the hitch) to the bottom of the tags, anything below the line could be damaged if the bumper is grounded.   Those items above the line have a low probability of damage.   
FWIW, JR
 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 06:42:34 AM by NJT5047 » Logged

JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
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"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
luvrbus
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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2008, 08:23:11 PM »

I don't know where dealers get the price for oil pans but a friend of mine paid $700 for one for a 60s used
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2008, 10:01:02 PM »

Brian, is that a 'cast' oil pan?    I reckon it's a sign of 'terminal' age, but that seems incredibly expensive for a stamped steel oil pan.   
If you modify the pan, don't forge the pickup.  It has a placement dimension that must be maintained.   Measure the distance that the pickup extends from the flange so you can maintain this distance with the modified pan.   
Is your oil cooler satisfactory for 5 (or therabouts) fewer quarts of oil? 
Some engines have the capacity to pickup oil from either end of the pan?? 
Will there be any windage issues with a considerably shallower pan? 
If it was mine, a skidplate would be looking good about now. 
The engine has a low oil pressure shut-down, so the engine wouldn't be fried.  Still, no one wants to have to worry about, or dink with a hole in the pan either. 
A skidplate would protect the pan and the weight of a substantial skidplate would be insignificant on a bus.
As long as the skidplate is properly rolled (so it cannot snag on anything) and securely anchored front and rear, at the worst, it would dent the bottom of the pan...IF something big was backed over.  Unlikely to damage, or allow damage, to the pan when driving forward.   The differential will clear the way.  Backing over something seems the most hazardous to your pan. 
Another possibility would be to add some 'nerf' bars to the undersides of the frame so that they drag just before the pan.   
If you scribe a line from the lowest portion of the back bumper (or bottom of the hitch) to the bottom of the tags, anything below the line could be damaged if the bumper is grounded.   Those items above the line have a low probability of damage.   
FWIW, JR

JR all good and valid points! Of course though even though I didn't point this out the first time, the guy I'm talking about builds everything and I mean everything for some of the big boys in NHRA! I mean some of the top fuel dragsters come from his shop! Some of them one piece at a time, and some the complete car minus the paint job! (of course they have those super light weight composite bodies delivered to him as he is a METAL man!)
I have seen him build some wild oil pans, headers, manifolds, and frames/chassis galore! (more chassis than anything!)

When our shops were next door to each other I watched EDDIE HILL and the Pennzoil crew roll in around 6-7 PM and back out around 6 AM headed to INDY for the US Nationals! I later asked Mark What they had done all night and his mild response was "slammed a new chassis together, because their old one was too twisted to align!"

Another time I watched as he completely tuned a funny car chassis (don't remember who's as the trk & body went elsewhere for a day or so.)

Ask Cody or Dallas this guy is a perfectionist! Cody and I watched one day as he eyeballed a bar for a roll cage on a prostock car. Took it over to the chop saw cut it for length, then snipped the end off it (notched it) and took it back to the car and laid it perfectly in place before welding it!

Best of all, for some reason he likes me and does stuff for me "reasonable" all the time! Of course the running joke we have is he always asks "me how soon do ya need it?" And my response is always "yesterday, if I needed it tomorrow I'd come by in 2 days! LOL!"
He just shrugs his shoulders, shakes his head and does it!

So if ya want shallower but still as much or more capacity, or baffled or what ever tell me what ya want and it will be done! I seen him build pans that the headers (he built them too) had to come off before the pan could. And the pan had to come off before  the starter could!
And watch out when he's building a set of headers, words and pipes are flying everywhere. But when he's done they are perfect!

Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
rv_safetyman
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« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2008, 01:41:33 AM »

Brian, just kind of skimmed the responses, so I might have missed some things. 

A shallow oil pan, at least on a Series 60, is designed to hold the same amount of oil.  You can see a comparison of deep and shallow pans on my project page (signature).  I would think the same is true with a Cummins pan.

Remember, you will need a shallow pick-up tube for the pan.  I would guess you can make one, but it would be better to use a Cummins unit , since a failure will not be pretty (huh Clifford?).

I had to relocate my dip stick, but more for the bus vs truck layout.  However, on a Series 60 the various ports have different heights and you have to be careful of calibration.  When you do yours, be sure to find out where Cummins wants the oil level  In a Detroit, it is 1 inch below the pan mounting service.

All of this coming to you for Gent Belgium {vacation,  Grin}.

Jim
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 01:43:39 AM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
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luvrbus
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« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2008, 06:22:15 AM »

 quote

Remember, you will need a shallow pick-up tube for the pan.  I would guess you can make one, but it would be better to use a Cummins unit , since a failure will not be pretty (huh Clifford?).

Right Jim $12,800 worth of ugly
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 07:16:12 AM by luvrbus » Logged
NJT5047
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2008, 06:44:43 AM »

Brian, post a pic of under the rear of your bus.   I'd like to see what you're working with.
I'll look on your website and see if anything shows the underside...
Thanks, JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
Brian Diehl
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2008, 07:15:39 PM »

Here are two views of the oil pan.  The bus rides about 3" higher when the tag axle bags are full of air.
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2008, 07:24:09 PM »

I called ABC down in TX and they did not have anything.  So, I called ABC up here in MN and am currently waiting for a guy to call me back with a "yeah" or a "nay".

I'd like to modify my pan by removing 3" from the bottom and then add capacity along the slope to make up for the loss of capacity. 

All the Cummins bus pans still hold 9 gallons and that capacity is mandatory according to my guy at Cummins.  The difference is the deep sump pans have a low mark of 7 gallons while the shallow pans have a low mark of 8 gallons.

Here is a PDF of the shallow pan:

« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 07:53:23 PM by Brian Diehl » Logged
Brian Diehl
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« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2008, 07:26:01 PM »

Brian if you can get us a stock pan from a junk yard (doesn't have to be good, mostly just there). Then give us the dimensions you want your new pan to be like. I got a guy who will build you one, that will A) work as good or better than stock. B) be stronger. C) look a whole lot "kweler". D) a heck of a lot cheaper! (at least 1/2 or more)

If you can shoot some pics & basic dimensions to me I can get a ball park figure for ya! Mark does some amazing things with metal! (of all kinds)
Grin  BK  Grin

Bryce,
Thanks for the offer.  I'm going to hold out on this for now until I've exhausted all my options. 

I gave Nimco a call today, but just got Nick's voice mail.  I doubt they have one, but maybe he knows of someone who might have one.

-Brian
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NJT5047
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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2008, 07:42:39 PM »

When aired up, is the pan still below the pumpkin?  You oughta get more than 3" of rise out of a fully aired up bus?   Are your airbags reaching full height?   Can you adjust your rear drive axle leveling valves to gain a couple more inches.  My 9 grows about 5" with aired up.  Adds a lot of space under the bus.   
The way that the pickup tube is mounted inside the pan, you could smash the H out of it and it would still flow oil...as long as the pan isn't 'holed. 
Changing the pan would clearly be the easiest way to resolve your problem. 
The pan looks like a stamped steel unit.   If so, I'm with Bryce in this one, any quality racecar shop can shorten the pan.    They could add volume back by punching out the sides.  The pickup will be easy to work with...since it's pan mounted, just cut it  offf to replicate the distance to the pan floor. 
The racecar guys may be a good solution...they can even install little windage doors so that the oil doesn't flow to one side or the other in long sweepers.  
Cannot believe a stamped steel pan is bringing $1700 bucks...no wonder trucking companies are stressed!
Watching with interest, JR 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 07:52:54 PM by NJT5047 » Logged

JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2008, 07:47:53 PM »

Quote from: Brian Diehl
Bryce,
Thanks for the offer.  I'm going to hold out on this for now until I've exhausted all my options. 

I gave Nimco a call today, but just got Nick's voice mail.  I doubt they have one, but maybe he knows of someone who might have one.

-Brian

Brian no problem, I just know what it's like to be looking for the proverbial "needle in a haystack" (I own SETRAs) and no one having it. Just let me know I already printed your pics and copied the description for a reference just in case.
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
Brian Diehl
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« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2008, 07:50:57 PM »

When aired up, is the pan still below the pumpkin?  You oughta get more than 3" of rise out of a fully aired up bus?   Are your airbags reaching full height?   Can you adjust your rear drive axle leveling valves to gain a couple more inches.  My 9 grows about 5" with aired up.  Adds a lot of space under the bus.   
The way that the pickup tube is mounted inside the pan, you could smash the H out of it and it would still flow oil...as long as the pan isn't 'holed. 
Changing the pan would clearly be the easiest way to resolve your problem.   

Watching with interest, JR 

The tag axle bags leak down, but the drive axle bags hold air indefinitely.  So, the bus is riding about 2-3" lower than it does when the tags are aired up.  Yes, the pan does just barely hang down below the lowest level of the differential.  When I put new bushings on the radius rods I reset the ride height to factory spec.  I don't think I'd be much inclined to change it much.  I think shortening this pan or getting the correct pan are really the right approaches.  I've put 8000 miles on this setup and in normal driving don't think it would ever be an issue.  However, we do go some "interesting" places and I do have to pay attention to make sure I protect that pan.
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buswarrior
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« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2008, 07:53:38 PM »

Yup, you want to get that thing hiked up...

the driveway into the wrong Cracker Barrel will nail you.

If folks could see how close their rear gets to the ground when dealing with ups and downs in and out of sloped driveways, it just might scare them...

I'm wondering if searching out the fleets that ran those engines/pans and finding out where the motor work gets done, or the scrap buses went might help?

That pan get used for other applications besides buses?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2008, 07:55:27 PM »

Yup, you want to get that thing hiked up...

That pan get used for other applications besides buses?

happy coaching!
buswarrior




I have no idea if anyone else ever ran that pan.  I think buses are really the only application where it is really needed...
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NJT5047
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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2008, 08:03:07 PM »

Yep.  I agree.  If the pan is below the pumpkin...no good....and I wouldn't overinflate the drive bags, just set them to standard specs and leave them alone otherwise.  Which you have done.
May I ask what you have invested in your engine conversions??  Or proximal? 
I'm on and off on the engine thing.  My bus runs great...so far.  If it crapped, what you have done, is impressive, and is a route that I would seriously consider. 
Jerry Campbell's and Gary Nixon's  S50 conversion into a 102A3 and MC8 respectfully, are also very nice. 
I believe the ISM 6 would be smoother.  And the Eaton transmission appeals to my taste also. 

JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2008, 08:05:41 PM »

Quote
I have no idea if anyone else ever ran that pan.  I think buses are really the only application where it is really needed...


What about marine applications? They use shallow oil pans.  Are ISMs found in a marine environment?
Does this pan fit any other Cummins engines?
JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2008, 08:06:19 PM »

Brain try TH Evans in Georiga 1-800-248-8889  have a great evening
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2008, 07:20:40 AM »

Brain try TH Evans in Georiga 1-800-248-8889  have a great evening

I chatted with TH Evans and they did not have anything.
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2008, 07:22:20 AM »

I found a pan at ABC MN.  The pan has a crack in it and the gentleman I talked to said he will sell it to me for scrap value since he thinks all weld repairs to the aluminum pans fail.  What do you guys think?  Is it possible to clean up the pan enough to get a good weld repair on the crack?  I would bring the pan to a guy I know who welds aluminum since I don't have the experience or equipment to weld aluminum.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2008, 07:32:15 AM »

Brain, glad you found 1 if the pan is welded right it be as strong a new
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skipn
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« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2008, 07:36:25 AM »

Brian,

   To me it really depends on 2 things... given you have a guy that can do the job.

   1. where is the crack at......Oil pans are not a high stress item but cracks around the drain and breather
       could be touchey.
   2. Is the pan true....if it was warped then after the welding is done and you go to put it back on, it
       could split along the weld.........

  If the price was right I'd give it a shot..........if it did leak a bit you could just say you had a DD  Shocked

FWIW
 Skip
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junkman42
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« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2008, 07:58:19 AM »

Brian, if the welder is a real welder You should have no problem welding a cast al pan.  Soak the pan in acetone and dry a couple of times, bake in a oven at 150f or so and weld with pan at least above 180f or so.  Also grove the pan on both sides and weld from each end of the crack to the middle and do so on both sides.  Also You should dye check the ends of the crack and stop drill the ends so a crack does not propagate from an unseen crack.  I would a high silicon rod but perhaps Your welder has a better suggestion.  John
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luvrbus
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« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2008, 08:08:17 AM »

Brian how John describes the process is the way I watched a automotive head shop repair aluminum heads
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2008, 08:28:43 AM »

Brian if done right it will last! Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2008, 08:35:47 AM »

Go for it is not like you will putting a 100,000 miles plus on your bus a year as they do with the Van Hools ABC sells
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 08:38:44 AM by makemineatwostroke » Logged
Brian Diehl
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« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2008, 04:46:18 PM »

Well, the pan is mine for $20.  Now I just need to find a place to get it welded with the facilities to clean it properly and prep it correctly.  The pan is not warped or dented, but does have on crack in line with a baffle and the drain plug was punched into the pan.  I have the plug and it looks like plenty of aluminum left to weld it correctly on the inside and outside.  I'll ask the welder to put an extra layer of aluminum plate around the plug on the outside once it has been welded back in.
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Bob Belter
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« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2008, 04:29:44 PM »

Ahoy, Brian,

Cummins ISM  --  M-11 Oil Pan depth reduction.

Piece of cake (If your ISM has a pan like my M-11)

On my stamped steel M-11 oil pan on my Eagle-01, I just scarfed the bottom (at a slight angle to aid oil change drainage) and welded a new bottom on it.  Absolutley no problem.  I shortened the oil pick-up tube, and put a 'box flanged' rectangular cavitation plate on it, with a screen.  Don't get too heavy with the cavitation plate and stuff.  You don't want it to fatigue and fall off. I used 4130 steel.050" thick.  I don't recall the exact depth or size of the cavitation 'box'  --- but I recall about 3"x4"x 3/4" deep with about 3/4" clearance from the bottom.   No problems in ~~36,000 miles.

I will measure the distance from the pan flange and the bottom and post it here.

Enjoy  /s/  Bob
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Bob Belter
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« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2008, 04:40:00 PM »

Ahoy, Brian,

Sorry, I missed that your ISM oil pan is aluminum.  The welding teqhniques above should give you very good results.

OR~~~~~~~~~~

I'll bet that the bolt pattern is the same as the M-11, so you could do what I did on a steel pan.

I just accepted the lesser oil quantity.  I change oil a bit more often.  Never any temp problems.

Enjoy  /s/  bob
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2008, 07:04:06 PM »

Thanks Bob,
How much less oil capacity do you have?  The ISM is designed to run with 9 gallons full and 7 gallons low on the normal truck pan.
-Brian
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Bob Belter
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« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2008, 08:30:19 PM »

Ahoy, Brian,

I'll check my oil pan depth in the AM and let you know.


The original oil pickup tube is about 1.0" dia with a simply scarfed end at maybe 45deg.  Quite crude, and certainly prone to cavitation even with oil level well above the top of the scarf .  Since I reduced the distance from the top of the oil level to the tube inlet, I felt that a cavitation plate would be quite prudent, along with  a 'rock' screen --  (Which my M-11 did not have). 

Most of this M-11 is really good, but it appears that no one is perfect.

For instance, there is a formed ~~5/16" main fuel feed to the head from the pump.  Uses a 1/8" mpt brass fitting. Broke at ~~30,000 miles.  Really quite 'light weight' when you take a good look at it. Turns out to be a well known fault to Cummins mechanics.  I replaced mine with a steel fitting and SS braided hose.

I know more than I had planned to learn about oil cavitation in my dry-sump 'E' class racing boat, and also my Porsche Speedster race car.

Enjoy  /s/  Bob 
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2008, 11:21:18 AM »

Ahoy, Brian,

My oil pan depth from the flange to bottom is 8.0", from the crank case is ~~8.25".

As I noted, I have no oil temp problems, no pressure problems.  The amount of oil carried only effects the rate of oil temp change.  So long as you have quite enough oil to insure no cavitation, you are OK, and your oil cooler system (which is integral to my M-11) controls the equlibrium temperature .

The big 'round' engines which I used to fly had NO oil in them.  Dry sump, with  an oil tank, and of course a cooler system.  Oil temp was the same regardless of quantity. 

New note:

Pebble Beach / Carmel / Laguna Seca Auto Week here!!!!  You find yourself in a traffic jam, and realize that your insurance coverage would NOT even put a fender on half of the cars around you.  Yah, and some of them drive as though the have just stolen them!!!

Enjoy  /s/  Bob   
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Dreamscape
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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2008, 03:31:53 PM »

Hey Bob,

When I was stationed at Fort Ord, 69-71, we used to love those days. We would take a jeep and watch the races from on post.

A long, long time ago.

Paul
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Dallas
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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2008, 03:44:27 PM »

Paul,

You mean you had to retread Basic that many times? LOL   Grin Grin Grin

Dallas

Hey Bob,

When I was stationed at Fort Ord, 69-71, we used to love those days. We would take a jeep and watch the races from on post.

A long, long time ago.

Paul
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Dreamscape
Guest

« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2008, 03:47:33 PM »

Dallas,

Basic was at Fort Lewis....HA..

Paul
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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2008, 04:06:37 PM »

You could get your total gallons up and do your engine a big favor by installing a remote Luberfiner 750.
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$1T in $1000 bills = 142 miles high
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