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Author Topic: Motor is very tired... (so am I)  (Read 3921 times)
Chaz
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« on: August 12, 2008, 07:18:33 PM »

Well, as promised, I'm writing to tell you guys about the motor................not good.

My mechanic, Dale, just called and told me what he found. Seems the compression is about 250 on the back cylinders (closest to bumper). He didn't check the ones toward the bulkhead as he said that was enough to tell him what he needed to know. I guess they are supposed to be about twice that.

The injectors were fine. (joy)

He said he priced a pistons and liners kit and it's about 4k. Then with labor and the possibility of the normal other things that are wrong, he said I should prep myself for about 10k if I want to redo it. He doesn't think it should be that much, but just wanted to fore warn me. (better to be prepared for the worst.)

The reason I was considering having it rebuilt was for a better resale. I know... that can also bite me in the @$#, but I just want to do right by whoever might want her. And having a fresh rebuild and the benefit of as good a gas mileage as you can get, might be a selling point................. or not. I'm still considering maybe a good takeout might be a better deal, but not sure what to do. I know there were a few threads posted about such motors - military, NIMCO, etc.

The last option - and probably the most realistic - is to strip her, sell the good stuff and drive her to the bone yard. It just makes me hang my head to even think about that.  Cry  That is SO, SO, SO, NOT like me......... but it seems like that is what a few people have talked about since the market is so soft. It's just a damn shame.

He said I could pick her back up this weekend. I don't really have to do anything right away - I guess - but I need to start thinkin. What do you guys think? I know opinions will vary, but I appreciate every one of them.

I gotta be honest, I had anticipated a major on the motor at some point - probably sooner than later - but after last weekend, I'm just not up to it. The wind is completely out of my sails. If I could hermetically seal her, and store her for a loooong time till I was back up to it, I would probably keep her and see what i could do in the future. But then, sitting doesn't do her any good either.

Anyway........ I'm feeling as tired as she is and I'm startin to ramble. Time to go horizontal.

If ya got time, let me know what ya think.

Thanx for thr ears,
      Chaz

p.s. I also understand that "could" be the reason for the heat issue.
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2008, 07:34:48 PM »

Hi Chaz,

Sorry to hear this..  The engine is not dead yet. You can still use her in cooler weather for a while.

Don't make any quick decisions. Wait for some replys here and I'm sure our folks will give you some alternatives.

Good Luck
Nick-
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2008, 07:42:05 PM »

Chaz, do you still have your first pair of shoes?

IF you have to sell, try to look at it as a steping stone to your ultimate 'bus' as you have out grown this one  Grin
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 08:21:55 PM by kyle4501 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2008, 07:53:30 PM »

8V71s can be repaired yourself cheaply. Inspect the rings, there must be some broken ones. 8V71 pistons and rods will drop out the bottom of the engine if you roll it just right. Drop the suspect pistons and hone the cylinder from below. Shove a new piston and rings in it and maybe some bearings.

Spending alot of money on that engine is a shame. The technology is obsolete.
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2008, 07:58:51 PM »

I agree with Nick.  Don't make any hasty decisions on it.

A little theme music for while you read: 


Park it for a few months.  Seal off the air intake and exhaust with plastic and anything else that is recommended for long term storage.  Block it up.  Put something over the tires to protect them.  See what you can find out about a good take out motor, it will be cheaper than rebuilding that one.  Find out the price now for your own edification on what the actual cost would be, but don't buy it right now.  Leave the bus alone for a few months.  To the extent you can, forget about it.

Then in a few months, go out and look it over again.  See what you feel when you get close with it again.  Do that each day for a week.  Then make up your mind.  If you want to keep it, buy and put in the good motor.  Fix any other issues you find and after that you should be set for more reliable bussing enjoyment.

Good luck and hope to see you in here.  You are certainly among friends here.
Mike
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 09:41:16 PM by HighTechRedneck » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2008, 07:59:27 PM »

Chaz, it could be a lot worse! It still runs which means a lot less  $$$ even at 10K! Have you priced a new car or truck lately? I'd much rather spend 10K and know what I have than to not spend it and know what I have and can't use!
Since you were planning a re-build anyway, why not now and since you sound like a nice family guy, keep this in mind, do it now, enjoy it, and most of all share those good times in it with your family! You'll be glad you did rather than sad you didn't!
Ace
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« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2008, 08:07:35 PM »

I'm assuming that your buddy Dale doesn't know any better but piston and liner kits can be had for under 2k.  Here are some running take outs for $1500.  http://www.commercialsalesinc.com/inv2.htm#Engines  Don't jump into this blind, or at least taking some other persons uneducated guess as the truth.  Most of the cost is going to be labor.  Parts are cheap.....!  Tell me this is not a give away price especially compared to your buddy Dale's quote.
 http://www.dieselpro.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1382&HS=1
If you copy and paste the link full in frame kit is $1267.13 including all the gaskets.  I wasn't being sarcastic about Dale in my first sentence.  Most of these old but very good mechanics just don't know how to shop on the internet and from my experience are very grateful for the resource you can provide them.  I have even got parts for below cost just for providing them with a source for cheap parts.  Chaz I'm telling you once your done with this rebuild you're gonna fall in love with her all over again.  Mark my words!

Fixed links. Richard
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 06:18:04 AM by DrivingMissLazy » Logged
luvrbus
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« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2008, 08:14:25 PM »

Chaz, I would take the bus some other place that guy is blowing smoke at 250# of compression the engine would look like a fogger going down the road never have I heard of compression check on just 2 cylinders and you can buy inframe kits for the engine for under 2gs everywhere I have seen them at 1500 bucks DD may be a little higher if they had one, or it could just need a valve job I would go somewhere else mechanics are like doctors get 2 opinions(no offence Don)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 08:42:37 PM by luvrbus » Logged
cody
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2008, 08:21:42 PM »

Chaz, I'm reading this all to mean you have a plateful and somehow got served seconds on a full stomache.  I understand what you are going thru, at least I think I do.  Sometimes things pile up on us and it seems like the best thing is to thro in the towel and try to move on, if thats the case I've been there lately myself.  I got dealt a major heart attack while I was waiting for a chance to get a brain tumor removed, now I'm sitting on that as well as the need for a double bypass and valve that can't be done for a few months or until I'm stronger, I'm told my heart attack is a direct result of my parkinsons.  To make the mud a little thicker, my only source of enjoyment has what appears to be a sick turbo and it's all beyond my financial or physical ability, kind of piles up fast doesn't it, I'm told that every dark cloud has a lot of rain in it but here on the board are friends that not only are good mechanics but also great sounding boards, any time you want to vent or just praise the great unknown forces that seem to look for weak times just pop into the chat room and we'll pick on whoever isn't there, it always makes me feel better.  Just don't do anything rashly, things sometimes have a way of turning around quickly, give it some time to sort itself out and remember your among friends here.
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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2008, 08:32:39 PM »

If I was buying a bus... I'd rather buy one with a known tired motor and get my own motor work done, than buy a bus with an unknown motor done fresh by someone who is planning to sell.

The discount for a poor motor isn't as much as the price of a properly done new motor, and I'd not pay you for it anyway.

Get a proper evaluation of the motor, make your decision, and if selling, sell it honestly the way it is.

Lots of buses out there, now and moving forward, don't need to put the handicap of old pain into it when you get going on being a busnut again.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2008, 08:53:51 PM »

If I was buying a bus... I'd rather buy one with a known tired motor and get my own motor work done, than buy a bus with an unknown motor done fresh by someone who is planning to sell.

The discount for a poor motor isn't as much as the price of a properly done new motor, and I'd not pay you for it anyway.

Get a proper evaluation of the motor, make your decision, and if selling, sell it honestly the way it is.

Lots of buses out there, now and moving forward, don't need to put the handicap of old pain into it when you get going on being a busnut again.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Thats a great point.  Honesty is always the best seller.
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« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2008, 09:17:14 PM »

There is a real good reason the V engine was tilted towards the rear-so you can work on it while still in the bus.  I would bring the bus home, pull the heads and check for cracked heads.  Then pull the pistons and JUST replace the piston rings and bearings.  Since the injectors are alright, if you get the cylinder heads sound, new rings and bearings, that would be enough to get you through a few more years (I'm of the opinion you should not sell it-these are GIANT projects that have ups and downs.  I can tell you that when it is done-it is absolutely the BEST!) until you can overhaul the engine the complete way.  Go for it and KEEP THE BUS!  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2008, 09:35:56 PM »

4G's for pistons and liners?  Ah come on now! I don't know how well you know Dale, but I'm gonna tell ya he ain't even given ya a reach around! Sorry I don't mean to be sarcastic or insulting, but I have mechanics tell me all the time that the parts can be bought for $150-200 a hole for relining one. Then ya add labor which shouldn't be more than a couple grand at most! Whew Chaz, if I were you I'd call around! I can point ya at 3-4 old timers who'd do ya better than that! (problem is they are all down here in TN!) What you need to do is find ya an old hand in yer neck of the woods who has been around old sawmills, coal trucks, or river boats. Those guys will know the how to's and where to's of rebuilding yer mill right & cheap! JMHO!  Undecided  BK Undecided
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« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2008, 09:53:00 PM »

With winter almost here a good number of us park our buses and wait for spring, and if you do the same that is time the bus would have sat anyways. The RV season is over and that will add to the already low prices that conversions are bringing. Winter will allow you to look around and find a good take out if you go that direction. It looks like there are plenty of sources out there.  A few months of down time might be helpful in making the best decision. If I had to mothball mine I would still keep it. After all, for what it would bring, I couldnít build a shed as cheep.  In the meantime, loan/rent it out to some buddies that could use it for a hunting lodge. When youíre down it really sucks and many of us have been there, and will visit it again unfortunately, possibly many multiple times. I can be my own worst enemy in times like that. We would hate to see you leave and with out a bus you could easily fade away. Look how much you have contributed, one more post and you will hit a thousand. Thatís a big accomplishment.

To my brother in buses,

Laryn
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« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2008, 10:13:53 PM »

When i did 71's it was a $100 dollars a hole but that was in the early eighties. What you got was a liner loaded with a piston & rings on a conrod w/ brgs. If the crankshaft journals were good you'd do the holes and exchane the heads. 71's used to be cheap and easy & would work like a dog, but run 'em on low load--trouble.
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Lonnie time to go
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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2008, 10:30:43 PM »

I am just trying to give you some options.
These series 50 engines are on ebay  buy it now price at  2K
should fit it great.  Many parts are available so you have no worries with that.
Hope this helps.

.                 www.atlanticdevelopmentcorp.com
Lonnie

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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2008, 11:29:05 PM »

Well, One thing is for sure.  None of us will take these coaches with us.  So the very first thing you should do is check with the boss and see if there is enough money to do what needs to be done to this coach.  If there isn't, then you couldn't have chosen a better time to let it sit.  With fuel coming ever so slowly down from $5.00 per gallon, we should all just cancel trips and enjoy life at home, or travel lighter.  We just cancelled a coach trip and are taking the car instead.  We are not interested in any more money going to oil until it damn well gets down to the $2 range.  Meantime, there will be a certain attrition in all of this where the day will come sooner than later when it will be so prohibitively expensive to buy a stick and staple, that the price of the superior real coach will have to go up.  I may be wrong, and fuel might go up, and everything else along with it.  High fuel prices have basically destroyed the economy so far.  It is very simple.  Either these fuel prices come back down to the $2.00 range, or look for continued recession leading to depression.  Meantime why be in hurry to use your coach and buy still more expensive fuel and provide Arabs with Pullman 747's with showers?  In other words, relax and give the fuel bubble a little time to pop.  Bill T.
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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2008, 01:40:15 AM »

Sometimes with a family and job it might be better to just walk away. It was a fun interesting experience and maybe its over. Better to spend the time with family, move on to something else?
 If you want to look for a two stroke mechanic, give Craigs list a shot. Some interesting finds on there. It would only take a few minutes of your time. I wold do a search and place an ad under skilled trades/craft.

   http://craigslist.org/

   
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Dallas
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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2008, 03:09:46 AM »

Chaz,

I have to agree with just about everyone else here, $500/hole is way too much, even when buying from DD. Doing rings and bearings, depending on what the liners look like would be an easy fix.
I still feel like there is another problem considering what you've told us about the overheat problem.

If it helps, Cat and I are only about 75 miles from you. We could be talked into wandering down that way and giving you a second opinion.

Dallas
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Airbag
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2008, 04:31:33 AM »

8V71s can be repaired yourself cheaply. Inspect the rings, there must be some broken ones. 8V71 pistons and rods will drop out the bottom of the engine if you roll it just right. Drop the suspect pistons and hone the cylinder from below. Shove a new piston and rings in it and maybe some bearings.

Spending alot of money on that engine is a shame. The technology is obsolete.

I agree repair the engine by dealing with the low cylinder or cylinders. Your mechanic should compression check all the cylinders and that way you can make an intelligent decision based on that. Good luck
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« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2008, 06:44:34 AM »

You have gotten lots of good info here about your engine. 
The one about the series 50 for $2,000 in not good.  They are natural gas engine's.  If you are not going to keep the bus and use it don't do anything to the engine.  YOu  won't get your money back when you sell.  If you are going to keep the bus, what ever you do don't patch the engine do it right.  You will save money in the long run. 
Jack
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« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2008, 06:58:50 AM »

1. I would suggest finging another Mechanic....perhaps one that does Green for a living

2. If you can find a good running takeout or a New Surplus engine but either way may or may not be cheaper than rebuilding.

3. if you rebuild, PLEASE have someone knowledgable do it.  To many guys spend money then have problems in relativley short time ( on engine) due to a shadetree detroit specialist rebuild becuase the owner opted to save 500.00

4. Don;t know anything about your bus or the conversion other than the little icon photo and that it had cooling issues.

5. although the cooling issue could have been the tired engine you cann't assume that was the only issue.  You could be looking for a 1200-1500 radiator as well

6. value of your unit is based on a few things as far as resale. Condition of the engine, condition of the bus, condition and quality of the conversion and the market at the time of sale.

Really, keeping or selling or scrapping is a personal issue, based on your needs, desires ( or lack of desire)and how big a hole you are in with it.  Pretty much all of them are holes.

it's a personal decision like deciding to get married/divorced or when to put down your old dog?

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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2008, 07:36:29 AM »

Chaz if you do rebuild your engine if buying aftermarket parts to buy from a supplier like FP or Clevite (made in the USA) they have a 2 year warranty and will be around 2 grand
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 07:50:26 AM by makemineatwostroke » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2008, 07:48:57 AM »

Chaz,

I have to agree with just about everyone else here, $500/hole is way too much, even when buying from DD. Doing rings and bearings, depending on what the liners look like would be an easy fix.
I still feel like there is another problem considering what you've told us about the overheat problem.

If it helps, Cat and I are only about 75 miles from you. We could be talked into wandering down that way and giving you a second opinion.

Dallas

Now theres a suggestion! I know Dallas has the tools to do a "GOOD" compression check. He also can give you a realistic $ figure.

Again I'm not try'n to "slam" yer mechanic, but his price indicates to me he's used to either working at a dealership, or doing emergency roadside repairs for the "MEGA FLEETS" that have $ to drop like that. (trucking fleets that is.)
FWIW JMHO   Undecided  BK   Undecided
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« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2008, 07:56:50 AM »

I am not sure if it is the same with 2 stroke engines, but we had a big natural gas driver that had issues with over heating, turned out it was incorrectly timed

Just a thought

Ross
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skipn
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« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2008, 08:09:39 AM »

  Seems the compression is about 250 on the back cylinders (closest to bumper). ........
 ............. I guess they are supposed to be about twice that.  

  Sorry but the old mechanical diesels didn't run that high of compression........FWIW

something to consider.

   1. If everytime you go to start the bus and you hold your breath wondering what will be wrong this time.......cut your losses
   2. If everytime you walk by the bus and there is no pride or a gleam in your eyes(heart)..... cut your losses
   3. If you have no wish to defend your dream.....cut your losses
   4. If everytime you look at another conversion and it is ho hum .....cut your losses
   5. If your plate is over full get a bigger plate Smiley

   If you read those and got upset keep it!

   Hope this helps
 Skip
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« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2008, 08:14:35 AM »

I am not sure if it is the same with 2 stroke engines, but we had a big natural gas driver that had issues with over heating, turned out it was incorrectly timed

Just a thought

Ross

Another good point! And again Dallas has the ability to discover that too! FWIW! Grin  BK  Grin

Disclaimer; please note I have no financial investments or am in any way connected to or stand to gain from: Dallas & Cat INC. But if ya want a good busnut opinion, they are great people. Dallas has the tools and knowledge to give you an honest opinion of the issue at hand.
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« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2008, 08:16:12 AM »

Call Nimco in New Jersey ask for Nick Liberti. http://www.nimcobus.com/
He has good running take out 8V/71 left hand rotation engines for far less than you can rebuild your engine.
About a 3rd cheaper than the rebuild cost of your old engine.
FWIW.
jlv
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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2008, 08:25:19 AM »

Skipn I don't know where you got the information about the compression on the engine but someone has missinformed you the average for a non turbo 2 stroke is 550# and the minimum is 500# at sea level FWIW 

Chaz I would question the guy on how he took the compression test the engine need to be running at 600 rpm for a accurate test and at 250# the engine would be hard to start and smoke terrible
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 01:40:52 PM by makemineatwostroke » Logged
skipn
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« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2008, 08:31:48 AM »

Ok I stand corrected....................

Thanks
 Skip



 Sorry but I have never done a compression test with a engine at 600rpm.
 Most of the diesel engines I have worked on had compression specs for a more static
 test.....plus bleed down times etc...........still I stand corrected.

   Static tests usually do not run as high a numbers........fwiw and may not be as accurate.
   Usually looking for differences between cylinders. This may have been the method used.
   don't really know what methods were used.....

 Skip
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 09:19:58 AM by skipn » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2008, 08:34:30 AM »

Just sit tight and wait. Don't strip it or dump it.
There will be the right time when its time to get the engine
fixed up. Maybe not now but you would get a bad case of
sellers remorse if you gave up now.

There are plenty of Left Hand engines out there if you are
patient and look around at places like transit auctions.
Those FLX & RTS buses are just about ready to be auctioned
off and sometimes you can get them for very little dollars.

You might even find a Cummins or Detroit 50 series with all
the stuff to install it if you are diligent. With the left hand
transmission adapter all ready to go.

Or you at least have a storage container that is self propelled
even if it doesn't run great.

Dave...
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« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2008, 09:27:56 AM »

Chaz Hi,we've never spoken before but I read your last post"as usual"and took great interest.As you probably know I've got issue's with my bus too,exept to say I don't know exactly what's up with my motor.whatI do know is what led up to my problem.I've gone thru great lengths to even get to where I am now.Seems the two of us are in the same boat (MATEY).When my engine first started throwing fits I got pissed off (fuel pump,amarillo)Realizing I needed to calm down first so I could see my way clear to a sollution otherwise I'm not getting this rig home .Now it's something else URGH! ,with no resorces and no manuals ,no place to park it I'm screwed.Untill I calmed down the answer nothin was gonna change ,found this web site and things started to take a direction instead of being stuck in a dead end .I got into a hole with this one too,need more money,parts some one that can give me their honest opinion concerning the big paper weight occuping the engine compartment.

   Reading your post and under standing what your plight was about reveiled some thing to me there ain't nothin that can't be resolved .If you love your bus like I do then roll ya sleeves up and get busy ,family first then the bus .I myself thought of selling the eagle,ok then what,I'm left with out the thing (material thing)I desire the most,thats B.S. Now I haven't owned my bus as long as you have,but already have an attachment to it so I know what you're goin thru.You got one opinion now go get some more and weigh them out,if money is the problem get some(I know this ain't easy)and get the job done.If ya got a place to do the job at home go for it your further ahead than I am,but don't throw your future happiness away cause ya missed the big trip ya been planning for .You always get over these set backs and the loved ones will too eventually

   It's real easy for friends and loved ones to suggest to sell the bus when things don't go our way,but thats only because we express nothing but negativity around them when the chips are down.And now after we had some time to think things thru our attitude changes some what,ya start to realize all ain't lost the solution is doable and ya make a go for it ,but wait a minute the family didn;t pick up on this and now I want to fix the thing after all ,family all of a sudden thinks your'e nuts . now after all of this I have to convince the family (after convincing my self)this ain't no thing ,boy do I feel like a sap, draggin every one around me down when things were'nt right and now havin to bring them back up reassuring then that it'll be alright.the isight I come away with after this ordeal is,IT'S ONLY A SIMPLE MACHINE it can be fixed with the right resources .

  Although all my resources have not been met(location,funds for parts)I do have the ability to do the work myself ,and have my progress supervised and checked by some one more technically proficient such as the final assembly I.E setting the rack properly.You put alot of work into your rig I saw youre pics real nice .I don't care what any one else here says to make ya feel better(actually I do)if it's cause ya need the dough more,no brainer get rig of it(I would),if not make it right so you can have that renewed confidence ya once had.Dallas is close by get that man down there to help ya sort it out ,don't try to figure it out you're self if you are not sure .

  Don Fairchild has been kind enough to lend a hand in diognosing my engine,man am I greatfull,this only strengthens my resolve.If I lived close enough to you I would be more than happy to lend you a hand.The day will come again when you'll turn the key and the beast will roar to life first shot.Hope I didn't pee on anybodys parade, but it's what I've been going thru and how I feel now.There are too many people out here that have the knoledge to share with us to be be laying back fellin sorry for our selves ,let's get back up on our feet(unless ya work better layin down ,no sense in fallin over)and get goin And I'll see ya down the road some where ,where we can sit back and laugh about this .

   nothin but love for ya

   The Bike Whisperer
         Van.
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Lin
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« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2008, 10:43:38 AM »

You have gotten a lot of expert tech advice here that will make the job much more affordable if you go for keeping it.  But from the way you sound, I would just think that there is no harm in waiting a while.  We all know the story of the camel and the straw.  It sounds to me that the bus is your straw.  Removing the straw does not solve the camel's problem.  Put this one out of mind for now and take it up when things are better.

See how you feel after the second eclipse coming up this Saturday.
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« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2008, 01:08:45 PM »

Chaz, call Dallas.......... Cool
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