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Author Topic: ENGINE FULL OF FUEL (UPDATE)!!!!  (Read 3297 times)
steve5B
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« on: August 17, 2008, 01:38:47 PM »



   This doesn't make any sense, fuel pump seal is ok, injectors check out ok!,  cross over lines are not leaking, however I was

    thinking, would it be possible that the return line to the fuel tank be plugged up and not letting it return ( or is there such a

    thing?   I lost a injector several years back and the mechanic who replaced it said he dropped a washer or seal down it hole

    where the injector goes in.  Said it didn't matter, wondering now if that's the problem.



   Steve 5B........
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luvrbus
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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2008, 02:19:30 PM »

could it be one of the plugs came out of the fuel galley that runs through the heads
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steve5B
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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2008, 02:28:07 PM »


  Luvrbus,


  Where are these plugs located, and do you need to remove the heads?

   Steve 5B......
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2008, 02:34:51 PM »

I don't know much about the pumps on these engines but I did have a pump on an old chevy go out and it pumped the block full of fuel.

I don't think these engines have that kind of pump even thou my 3.9 cumins has i think.

Sorry I can be of more help.
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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2008, 02:45:57 PM »

This seems to be a really scary problem that, hopefully, has simple solution.  Please keep the info coming.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2008, 03:03:18 PM »

Steve I checked the book and they do not have a plug inside the head but the place where the lines attaches to the heads screw into the heads with a brass washer under them and the only other place I could see where it could leak was the body of the injector where the nut is it also a brass or rubber washer seal. I know these injectors will leak but that is a lot of fuel for leaking injector
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 06:24:46 AM by luvrbus » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2008, 03:25:01 PM »

    As was already mentioned. Remove the valve covers and look.  I think you will find a spot that is very clean (washed with diesel fuel). Doing this is about the simpliest, easiest and cheapest.  If you do not find any "clean spots", then you will have to dig deeper. 
    And of course, change the oil & filter before starting.  After the leak is found and corrected and the oil changed, I would spin the engine, holding the rack closed to circulate fresh oil before letting engine start.  Jack
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« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2008, 07:09:59 PM »



   This doesn't make any sense, fuel pump seal is OK, injectors check out OK!,  cross over lines are not leaking, however I was

    thinking, would it be possible that the return line to the fuel tank be plugged up and not letting it return ( or is there such a

    thing?   I lost a injector several years back and the mechanic who replaced it said he dropped a washer or seal down it hole

    where the injector goes in.  Said it didn't matter, wondering now if that's the problem.



   Steve 5B........

Steve,
How are you determining these to be OK? Visual inspection? If so you might want to go a step farther. When we had our problem we had 3 different Detroit mechanics pull the valve covers and inspect and tell us there was no problem (I'd already done the exact same thing before the 3 of them!)! Then a young shop helper from a shop we know (they hate buses, but like us) told me he watched his boss find a "mysterious" leak with a dye injector and a "black light"! Hmmm, OK sounds like an idea, now off to see Tommy and get some insight on this. Tommy was more than willing to loan me his dye injector, and even the "special light" he had, and even explained in detail how to use it, & what & where watch for!

OK now back at the shop I hooked up the injector and started injecting dye. We looked and looked and could not find any traces of dye. I called Tommy and told him my results. He suggested that I leave the injector hooked up @ 15lbs of pressure for a while and reinspect! OK we did this and found 3 cross over lines that had just a little trace of dye around the fittings, but not running down anywhere at all. OK called Tommy again in the AM & told him of this discovery. He confirmed what we had thought, that this WAS NOT WHERE OUR FUEL WAS COMING FROM since it wasn't even dripping!  He suggested turning up the pressure to 25 lbs and checking it after several hours. Again no luck. He told me he'd "try and get by there after he closed his shop." Well along about dark thirty he called and said he wasn't gonna be able to make it!
Well I was disappointed, but decided what the hey I'll look again myself now that it's after dark! Wow as soon as I turned on the light there was orange dye all over! I looked and it was running very lightly from the middle of the head to the bottom of it and running down the oil galleys.

OK I now knew I was infact finding fuel where it wasn't supposed to be! But where was it coming from? Well about that time my dad came up and we discussed it! Dad suggested that since it was a DDEC unit maybe we should try it with the key on or maybe running!
Well I got into position to watch and dad went to the drivers seat. Then he turned the ignition on, nothing. So I told him to go ahead and start it.
Whoa shut it down, shut it down! Fuel was pouring out off of 6 injectors and with the light the cracks looked like lightening bolts!
The next morning Tommy stopped by, and we told him what we'd found. He was very surprised and wondered if we were able to make it dark enough for him to see during the day. I told him to hang on a  minute and went next door to my buddy Mark's shop and borrowed several large welding blankets. Then We went in the bus and draped one from the front of the access hole down over the back of the bell housing and trans. Left one laying there to use as a cover. Went back to the back and used vise grips to hang a couple of them from the engine hood (Setra's open up and stick out over ya like a sun or rain cover!). With this done it was almost as dark as it'd been at night. Tommy went in the bus and pulled the one over the opening back and over his head. I had the ignition key on, and when Tommy said he was ready I started it from the rear position. Almost as soon as it started Tommy said shut it down. He came out of the bus with a half grin, and said "well I seen two things just now I ain't never seen before! One is I ain't never seen a dark room built out of blankets before, and two is I ain't never seen injectors leak like that before!" So as we discussed it he asked if I could leave it set up for dark a while. Sure. Then he went on to say if it were him he'd change all 8 injectors and all the crossover tubes & seals!
A little before lunch he showed back up with all his shop hands and mechanics, as well as 2 of the 3 (from different shops around town) that had told us we didn't have bad cross overs or injectors! When Tommy told me to I started it and he had the guys take turns watching what was happening! When Tommy told me to shut if off, everybody was surprised at what we'd just showed them.
We thanked them all for coming by and checking it out. And they thanked us for showing them what we'd found saying it could come in handy some day. Then we all went to lunch! While at lunch I tried to see if they were willing to "chip in and donate for new injectors, for the education they'd just received?" Unfortunately everybody politely declined, but someone did "mysteriously" paid for dad, Lamont's& my meals. So it wasn't a total loss!

So just because ya can't see it don't mean it ain't leaking!
And yes mine were DDEC and leaked in a way that 5 or 6 well known diesel mechanics from around here had never seen before. Just goes to show ya, with persistence and different methods it can be found and corrected!

FWIW Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2008, 07:46:51 PM »

I don't know much about the pumps on these engines but I did have a pump on an old chevy go out and it pumped the block full of fuel.

I don't think these engines have that kind of pump even thou my 3.9 cumins has i think.

Sorry I can be of more help.

The pump on a DD has a weep holes so that if either seal fails, it won't impact the other side.  The problem is that the holes are tapped to accept 1/8" pipe plugs.  Often enough, guys plug the pump all up.  This is OK until a seal fails for whatever reason.
The goal is to leave the lowest hole open.   
Old fuel pumps with diaphrams would make a huge mess if the diaphram failed.  The DD pump is a small gear pump, so there ain't no diaphrams to fail.   DD fuel pumps rarely fail. 
BK has the best solution...dye.  That's the plan!
Best, JR 
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2008, 08:56:00 PM »

We had a series 50 shut down on the freeway the other day. The driver said the check engine light came on and she shut down. The oil showed way over full. The computer showed a low oil pressure fault. We changed oil, filter and injectors and she's back on the road. One of the mechanics said it's happening a lot more lately. Could be a fuel or injector problem. We're not sure which yet...Fuel for thought...Cable

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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2008, 06:15:12 AM »

I was getting fuel in my oil on my 6-71 soon after we first got it.

I looked at all the normal things listed here and found nothing.

I then put an electric fuel pump on the system and that is when I noticed fuel oozing from around the injectors. This was not noticed while the engine was running because engine oil was mixing with it.
The fuel was coming from 3 of the injectors themselves. I pulled one of the worst ones out and found that the "O" ring seal between the Injector Nut and Injector Body was dried and brittle with cracks.

I located some seals at a local truck shop and took one Saturday morning to pull all 6 injectors one at a time and replace the seals.  I did a video of it and posted it on Youtube. I've had no problems since.
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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2008, 01:55:42 PM »

Hello:
       
   When I was having discussions about the new low sulfur fuel one of the concerns from the Cummins guys (RE mechanical L10 engine) was :
     You might have trouble with your fuel system because the new fuel does not have the same lubricity and some or all of certain o rings may deteriorate enough to leak by.
    So this may be a symptom of that phenomena occurring because of the composition or age of a particular elastomer. 
    FWIW
    happy bussin   Mike
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steve5B
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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2008, 06:27:58 PM »


  Everyone !!!!!


   Thanks for all the info.......Not knowing much about buses in general this is a good place to start.  Here's what I decided to do.

    Had it towed to the local DD shop, told them to replace all injectors, cross over lines, fuel pump, replace anything and
 
   everything it might need!.  Hopefully it won't be to much because it was rebuilt 24,000 miles ago.   Also just a note, I did an oil

  analysis on my spectrometer  and it showed no ware , but high fuel dilution.   Will let everyone know when I get it back.  Maybe

 it is the injector seals from the low sulfur fuel.


  Steve 5B....
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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2008, 07:58:27 PM »


  Everyone !!!!!


   Thanks for all the info.......Not knowing much about buses in general this is a good place to start.  Here's what I decided to do.

    Had it towed to the local DD shop, told them to replace all injectors, cross over lines, fuel pump, replace anything and
 
   everything it might need!.  Hopefully it won't be to much because it was rebuilt 24,000 miles ago.   Also just a note, I did an oil

 
  Steve 5B....

By golly that ought to fix it!   Wink


JR
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« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2008, 09:06:37 PM »


  Everyone !!!!!


   Thanks for all the info.......Not knowing much about buses in general this is a good place to start.  Here's what I decided to do.

    Had it towed to the local DD shop, told them to replace all injectors, cross over lines, fuel pump, replace anything and
 
   everything it might need!.  Hopefully it won't be to much because it was rebuilt 24,000 miles ago.   Also just a note, I did an oil

  analysis on my spectrometer  and it showed no ware , but high fuel dilution.   Will let everyone know when I get it back.  Maybe

 it is the injector seals from the low sulfur fuel.


  Steve 5B....

Steve,
Boy when you decide to get'r done......You get'r DONE! Wow, I probably would have told them check out what it needs and let me know! Then based on what they said it needed and cost would have told them ya go ahead, or well you do this and I'll do that! But it should be done right when ya get it back, providing they know what they are doing on 2 strokes! Just out of curiosity where are you located and what DD Dealer did ya take it too?  Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2008, 10:12:06 PM »


    Had it towed to the local DD shop, told them to replace all injectors, cross over lines, fuel pump, replace anything and everything it might need!.  Hopefully it won't be to much because it was rebuilt 24,000 miles ago. 

 Shocked Shocked Shocked

I hope it works out good.  But it would scare me sleepless to give such a broad authorization to a DD shop, or any shop for that matter.  Even assuming the shop is honest and ethical, which is a big assumption these days, a shop with an open mandate like that can find a lot of little things to fix on almost any vehicle/engine.  (It's kind of like going to the dentist, they can always find work that "needs to be done".)

Again, I hope I'm being paranoid.  But you might want to check up on it frequently rather than wait until it's done and then find out you owe them both arms and a leg.

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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2008, 05:25:25 AM »

I doubt a DD dealer will replace everything pertaining to the fuel supply they will check and find the problem and replace that part.They are not going to replace a bunch of parts only if he insists on replacing the good parts they do like to replace fuel lines in a set ($160.00).thats the way it works at Stewart and Stevenson anyway.  have a great day guys
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 05:30:27 AM by makemineatwostroke » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2008, 08:01:59 AM »

In my past experiences if you take something, anything to any mechanic or shop and tell them do this, this and this, and then see what else it needs. They are going to do just that replace everything you told them to, and then look for other possiblities! They might hold off on the "other stuff" and ask first. But in my experiences in owning vehicles and having them in other shops and also in owning my own shop, most mechanics will replace what the customer tells them too. Then after the customers complains "it's still not fixed and I got a $?Huh.?? BILL?" They simply explain "we did what you told us to do, you didn't ask us to find the problem and call you, before replacing all this stuff. You said do it, so we did!"
NOW HOLD ON! I didn't say it was RIGHT! And I didn't say it was a personal practice of mine. But I have personally seen it time and time again. And it did happen in my shop once!

I was out on the road and a customer brought his truck in and told my mechanic to replace the water pump. Well he did and the customer, paid for it, picked it, and left. Then the next week when I was in the shop the customer came in extremely mad saying "I paid to have my truck fixed and it broke down the same night, after I left here! I had to have it towed in to another shop and they fixed it! It wasn't the water pump that was wrong with it, it was a thermostat!" 

Now I was upset that the customer was upset, and that the truck was not correctly fixed. So I called Woody into the office and asked him why he replaced a water pump and not the the thermostat. He looked the customer in the eye and responded "you told me to replace the water pump and even brought your own water pump in. You didn't ask me to see what the problem was, nor did you tell me what it was doing, or if I thought it could be anything else! You said {hey I need you to put this water pump on so I can take this thing to the auction tonight!}, and THAT'S WHAT I DID!"

Well I wasn't happy to have a customer in the office ranting and raving, and I wasn't happy that it wasn't fixed right. But in Woody's defense I had to back him up and agree with him. If Barry came in and said "here put this water pump on". Then Woody did exactly as Barry told him to do! Now to be honest Woody should have checked the truck over and found out it was a bad thermostat, but he did what Barry (a used car dealer who had a habit of bringing stuff in at the last minute and saying "here I need ya to do this right away" and always had his own parts in the car/truck!) And most times it was not the correct fix. He liked hot wiring electric fans, and other shadey fixes just to "run it thru the auction". He asked us numerous times to "liquid glass" an engine with a bad head gasket, which we refused to do! So in the end Barry got what he asked for, and so did Woody! Barry quit bringing stuff to my shop, until he heard Woody was longer there and then he started bring in stuff again. But he always made sure I was there and he always asked "do ya think that's the problem, or could ya spend 5 mins checking it out?" !!! FWIW Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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steve5B
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« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2008, 09:20:28 PM »



   So far what they have found, the guides in the heads where the injectors set in have (for a lack of better words ) WALLERED

   OUT!  They said this is possible because the pounding of the rockers.  I haven't heard of this before, but I really don't know

   much about these type of engines.  If this is the case maybe it won't be to hard to fix!


  Steve 5B......
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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2008, 04:26:54 AM »

Steve never saw any guides in the heads for injectors the injector its self has a dowel that goes into a hole in the head to keep it in alignment is this the part that worn out or is he talking about the follower and plunger on top of the injector  have a great day
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 05:08:20 AM by makemineatwostroke » Logged
Dallas
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« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2008, 04:38:55 AM »

I was thinking that maybe what Steve was talking about was the injector tubes.

Dallas

Steve never saw any guides in the heads for injectors the injector its self has a dowel that goes into a hole in the head to keep it in alignment is this the part that wore out or is he talking about the follower and plunger on top of the injector  have a great day
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steve5B
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« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2008, 05:31:30 AM »


   Mkemineatwostroke, Dallas,


   Maybe that's what it is, like I formentioned not knowing anything about a diesel engine.  Since you brought that part up I do remember them saying something about a stand or tube.  Do injectors sit in a tube?   I feel pretty stupid asking questions about mechenics , when I'm a oil--fuel chemists!   Sorry for the mistake.


Steve 5B.....
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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2008, 05:45:21 AM »

Steve the injectors do go into a tube surrounded by water when the tube fails it is usually water in the oil and I would in no way feel stupid asking questions  and fwiw when a follower and plunger fail most of the time it is from wear on the shaft and rocker arms causing it to push down on the edge and not the center of the injector    have a great day
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 06:02:38 AM by makemineatwostroke » Logged
steve5B
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« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2008, 08:23:33 PM »



   Got the news late today that several of the injectors have to be replaced due to , what they say is that the rod that runs through the injectors are leaking .  They told me that this is called the rack.  Haven't a clue on what he was talking about.

Anyway looks like I get it back on Saturday.  As for the price, around (exchanged) $75.00.  Is that a normal price?  Labor around

$ 900.00!

 Steve  5B........
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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2008, 08:35:45 PM »

Steve that is the rack it has gears to control the amount of fuel to the engine $75.00 is a fair price for injectors and the labor price for what is involved is not that bad they will run  the rack and time the injectors so you are getting  tune up with the change   have a great evening
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 08:40:19 PM by makemineatwostroke » Logged
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« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2008, 10:03:05 PM »

I agree it sounds like a fair price. And it should show a noticeable improvement in performance too! Have a great day. Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2008, 05:49:11 AM »



  THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR ALL YOUR IMPUT, LOOKING FORWARD TO GETTING IT BACK TOMORROW.

  WILL LET YOU KNOW HOW IT PREFORMS!



STEVE 5B......
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