Bus Conversions dot Com Bulletin Board
July 25, 2014, 06:07:39 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If you had an E-Mag Subscription: By clicking on any ad, a hotlink takes you directly to the advertiserís website.
   Home   Help Forum Rules Search Calendar Login Register BCM Home Page Contact BCM  
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Front tire blowout - handling procedures  (Read 5334 times)
plyonsMC9
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1159


Big Wheels Turnin'


WWW
« on: August 25, 2008, 07:39:41 AM »

I have pulled a section of a thread from the MCI Busnuts as I thought it presented some great safety information.  Maybe we could get some input here.  I would sure appreciate knowing more in this area - it looks like this kind of information could save a life ( or lives ).  Don't know the 'netiquette', so am just going to grab a snippit & see where that takes this.

----->
I second Pete's comments.

Just keep the bus straight and in your lane. No accelerator pedal and no
brakes at first. And forget the emergency brake, as it has no
sensitivity/feedback like the air treadle. The added drag of the failed
front tire will provide significant drag and (therefore, braking) to slow
the bus without any driver "help" with the brake pedal. Assuming it is a
right front tire, expect that you will need to use some left-turn wheel
steering to counteract the drag of the failed right front tire.

Below 30mph, very slight brake pedal action can be applied, but forget about
the screaming passengers and noise and just stay focussed on keeping the bus
straight and in the lane. The passengers are not going to help you and
become a distraction that you need to "tune out" until stopped. Expect some
front wheel-well damage and also "tune out" the noise of the tire shredding
itself to pieces and flapping around in the wheel well. Sheet metal to
replace the wheel well panels is cheap, human lives are priceless.

Remember, you are now trying to stop a 40 ft bus with only 3 corners having
correctly functioning brakes. The use of any brake pedal will exert braking
to only the one good front tire, which can easily overcome the front
steering (even with power steering, the forces are tremendous). Assuming
it is a right front tire that has failed, the use of any braking pedal
action will now try to turn the bus left. If you are already pulling the
steering wheel left to resist the drag on the right front corner, the sudden
use of brakes will abruptly make the bus try to turn left, setting you up to
either spin out or roll the bus, depending on load, pavement conditions, and
wind. (and it's usually roll the bus, due to the CG and aerodynamics of a
bus).

Been there, done that.

Lonnie

----------> Cut
Logged

Northern Arizona / 1983 - MC9
Len Silva
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4083


Angle Parked in a Parallel Universe


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2008, 07:54:32 AM »

Interesting,  I had always assumed that the braking force would be applied more to the blown tire, at least for the first few seconds until the tread comes off.

I have also heard that you should actually accelerate at first to help maintain control, then slow to a stop with minimal braking (assuming it's safe to do so.)

I had a right front blowout on my 4104 at speed and just coasted to a stop, a complete non incident.  It was a sidewall that went and I didn't have any tread damage to the wheel well.
Logged


Hand Made Gifts

Ignorance is only bliss to the ignorant.
HighTechRedneck
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2922


BCM Editor


WWW
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2008, 08:14:54 AM »

I definitely agree this topic needs some attention and input from drivers (especially professional drivers) that have been through it.  It would also make a great seminar at one or more rallies.

Thankfully, I've only been through blow outs in cars.  So I'm not an expert on it.  But what about engine/transmission braking (jakes, retarder or just downshifting) since that would only apply drag to the rears.
Logged
kyle4501
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3122


PD4501 South Carolina




Ignore
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2008, 08:26:05 AM »

There was a video link posted a while back that explained the various forces acting on a vehicle going down the road. It also explained why (in the case of a blow out) the best first action is to accelerate.


I've had a couple of front blowouts. The main thing to do is make gradual changes. Sudden over-corrections are what causes the most damage.

What I did 2 months ago while pulling a 32' trailer at 60 mph on a divided hi-way & the front tire blew. (I had checked the air pressure & given it a visual inspection 15 miles prior to the incident.)
Got a good grip on the wheel with both hands.
Since the blown tire is pulling you into a decreasing radius turn, correct only enough to make it a constant radius,
then correct to a straight line,
then correct to parallel to your desired path, (time elapsed ~2 seconds)
Then check your mirrors & steer to where you need to be.

While I was doing the steering corrections, I gradually eased off the throttle.
Once I felt I had regained control of the vehicle, I gradually eased on the brakes to safely stop.


Being able to ignore the noise from the tire & passangers helped a lot!

Being able to make calculated adjustments is critical. Making rash, abrupt changes will only increase your chances of injury.


Logged

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. (R.M. Nixon)
H3Jim
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1398


1995 Prevost H3-41, series 60, B500 Allison




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2008, 08:48:04 AM »

Last year I had the tread come off (firestone) the left front tire of my F-250 pickup.  I was doing 80 when I felt some serious vibration.  I started to slowly slow down  when the entire tread came off and wrapped itself around both the rest of the tire, and the front axle. It was like locking up just that wheel for a short time until the wrapped tread stabilized itself.

In about 1/10 of a second, the locked up tread pulled me over 1/2 lane to the left. I kept a steady hand, had my foot off the gas and gently steered back into my lane, then slowly over several more lanes to the side of the freeway.  I was really glad that raffic was light and there was not anyone in the left lane, or I would have hit them.

When I bought the truck, they had said the trouble with Firestone tires was only for the ones on the Explorer, and the heavier duty ones for the F-250 were perfectly good tires.  I changed the tire, drove straight to Disocunt tire and had all new Michelins put on.  I will never have another firestone tire on a vehcile I own.  At the speeds I drive, I could have easily been killed.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 09:29:22 AM by H3Jim » Logged

Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

Travel is more than the seeing of sights, it is a change that goes on, deep  and permanent, in the ideas of living.
kyle4501
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3122


PD4501 South Carolina




Ignore
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2008, 09:10:25 AM »

What a strange coincidence, the tire that blew on me was a firestone. According to the sidewall information, it was the appropriate tire for my K2500 suburban & wasn't overloaded either. I didn't get the benefit of any warning vibration either.  Sad

Yes, I did a bit of lane shifting too, but since I was in the right lane when the right side tire blew, I was lucky. Cool
Logged

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. (R.M. Nixon)
Busted Knuckle
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6447


6 Setras, 2 MCIs, and 1 Dina. Just buses ;D


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 10:15:47 AM »

OK back in '06 Fourth of July week end dad & I helped a friend / competitor drive 3 bus loads of Hindu Indians out to Lubbock, TX for a wedding. We'd just fueled and made a driver change (sotra, I went from driving a Renaissance to an H3-45 & a new log page! some relief! LOL!) somewhere just east of Abilene, TX. (to long ago to remember exactly) Anyway I was following Sam & Bobby, (Bobby owned all 3 buses) Sam was driving while Bobby rested. And dad & Gary were behind me, dad driving and Gary resting.
About 30-40 miles down I-20 at MM 260 there was huge sound of an explosion, and the front end started to shimmy. I knew instantly I'd blown a steer tire, but didn't know which one! Now we were running 75 +/- (speedo didn't work) and I was in the left lane passing a little car that had the windows down. I looked in the mirror and saw the car exit the hwy at 65-70 mph across the grass strip onto the service/access rd, and then stop. SO I pretty well figured it was the right one, and it only took a slight second to assure my self of that the way it was pulling. Well I looked in the mirror again and saw dad had backed way off and was splitting the lanes and had his hazard lights on. So I knew I had a wide open area around me. Up ahead Sam just kept flying on down the road, no noticing what was going on behind him. Well I just turned on the jake brake and just let the bus "coast down to a stop" by feathering throttle pedal and letting the jake ease me down. Once I had it slowed down enough I knew I could keep it under control I eased on the brake while slowly easing over onto the shoulder. But not to hard on the brake or all the way onto the should until I was almost completely stopped. Then as I set the brake and opened the door I got out and looked!
OH not pretty, but it was safely off the road and nobody injured! Several trucks went by honking and giving me a thumbs up sign. (I guess they'd figured out dad was holding a safe zone for me, and were impressed I'd kept it under control!) Dad and Gary came up as all my passangers got of hugging and praising me (I guess they were praising me I couldn't understand 95% of it, but the smiles and hugs made me feel like they were!)
Dad just looked at it and said "good job son, I knew you were in for a ride when I heard it. But then when the tread came out from under you and over us, I was pretty worried!" Gary was still white as a ghost and speechless! I asked what was wrong, and he said. "I just got to sleep and I heard KABOOOM like a shot gun going off in my ear, and I open my eyes and see a tire flying at us!"
Then I asked hey has Sam & Bobby stopped? Ah good question, dad called Bobby and asked if they knew we were missing. Bobby was obviously asleep, and said "do what? Where ya at?" Then he told Sam to pull over, and as Sam was pulling over he looked at Bobby and said "Hey I don't see them other two buses anywhere in sight!" Bobby said "yeah Bryce blew a tire 15 miles back!"
So they did a U turn across the grass strip onto the service road and came back up it to where we were. Bobby had been on the phone calling everybody about getting a tire truck out there, and was having no luck (he has a national account with someone). SO when they  got back we decided to split my load between the other 2 buses and Bobby would stay with the one that was broke down. Bobby finally got a tire service out of Lubbock to agree to come out. We went on and about 3 hrs later Bobby came in.

Later that night after we'd gotten some rest we sat around at dinner talking about it. I had looked the ires over when we swapped, and it'd looked fine. And Bobby said it wasn't 2 months old. Sam said when he'd "pre-triped it before leaving Troy (Bobby's place) he had used a gauge on all the tires because they didn't look right, but that they were all OK!" And as particular as Sam is I do believe him.

So #1) Stay off the brake
#2) Stay calm & focused
#3) ease to a safe place and stop gradually.

FWIW Grin  BK  Grin
Logged

Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
buswarrior
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3571


'75 MC8 8V71 HT740




Ignore
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2008, 12:22:06 PM »

Blow out video is on Michelin somewhere, IIRC.

Blow out is a non-event.

The test drivers at Michelin do it all the time, and there's nothing to it.
If you had the chance to try out a few, you'd call it a non-event too.

Only your panic will make it newsworthy.

The noise and uncertainty will trigger reactions that will put us in the rhubarb.

If the vehicle starts out of control, the driver has done it, not the vehicle. It wants to continue down the highway, the driver did something to give the higher drag blown tire an advantage to pull.

Reactions are your enemy, because they naturally involve lifting throttle, applying the brake pedal and/or sudden motions of steering and/or pedals to make stuff go away. Sudden lift throttle with the jakes/retarder on, and that'll start something. And how many leave the jake/retarder switch turned on all the time going down the road?

The Michelin test drivers don't...

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Logged

Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
Dreamscape
Guest

« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2008, 12:28:02 PM »

This is a great topic!

It needs to either be a sticky or put in the Help Section. Somewhere where it's easy to find.

I have never had this happen in a car, pickup or our Eagle. So I can't add anything but "Great Information".

All of us could learn something, I know I just did....Don't buy Firestone Tires for a starter.  Roll Eyes

Paul
Logged
H3Jim
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1398


1995 Prevost H3-41, series 60, B500 Allison




Ignore
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2008, 12:32:37 PM »

Generally its true, a blowout can be a non event if the driver knows what they are doing.  I was surprised when my truck did jerk over a half lane faster than the blink of an eye, and before I even had time to react.  But it wasn't something I did, as I am an experienced driver and I know how to handle emergencies.  

It was the tire tread that totally separated from the caracass in one peice.  When it wrapped around both the tire and the axle, it effectively put the brakes on  momentarily.  The actual tire did not blow out, the carcass still had air pressure in it.

So it can and did happen that a tire event can be life threatening no matter your skill.  NO MORE FIRESTONES!!

Keep in mind that these (Kyle4501 too) were light truck tires, I'm told that the truck and bus tires are completely different, and are very good tires.  That may very well be, but I sure am gun shy of the brand.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 09:59:41 PM by H3Jim » Logged

Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

Travel is more than the seeing of sights, it is a change that goes on, deep  and permanent, in the ideas of living.
Ray D
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 203





Ignore
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2008, 04:36:49 PM »

Here is the link to the movie on blowouts

http://www.michelinrvtires.com/michelinrv/toolbox/videos-demos.jsp#The_Critial_Factor

Click on "Critical Factor"

Ray D
Logged
ol713
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 150



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2008, 05:58:09 PM »


Hi all;
       I have a MC-7. I too had a blowout on the front.  In what seemed
       like a loooong split second, I remembered to set the park break.
       Even at 60mph, I  had no problem handeling the bus. Earlier I had
       read the instructions in the Greyhound Drivers book that said to
       do this in an emergency.
                                     Happy driving  - - - Merle.  Shocked
Logged
plyonsMC9
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1159


Big Wheels Turnin'


WWW
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2008, 08:20:35 PM »

So far, it looks like the only thing that can cause problem with a front tire blowout is panic.  e.g., stepping / stomping on the brakes, jerking the steering wheel, etc.. Is that correct?  Different approaches seem to have worked: Jakes to slow down the bus, emergency brakes, and just letting the bus slow down, then gently applying the brakes. 

Thanks to all who have contributed so far, this is really helpful.

Best Regards, Phil
Logged

Northern Arizona / 1983 - MC9
H3Jim
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1398


1995 Prevost H3-41, series 60, B500 Allison




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2008, 09:51:47 PM »

Gee Phil, no, not the only thing that can cause a problem is driver panic. If the tire itself actually comein contact with a both a stationary object and the rim, it can cause you  severe issues.  I would say 99% of the time you are correct, but it can and did happen to me where there was not anything I could have done differently other than not have Firestone tires.
Logged

Jim Stewart
El Cajon, Ca.  (San Diego area)

Travel is more than the seeing of sights, it is a change that goes on, deep  and permanent, in the ideas of living.
plyonsMC9
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1159


Big Wheels Turnin'


WWW
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2008, 06:51:35 AM »

Good point.  Your story was eye-opening for me as after reading it, I tried to imagine what it would feel like to have that tire rubber wrapping the stationary object. Two hands on the wheel helped at that point I'm guessing.  That, and you never know when "something" may happen.

Thanks again Jim!!
Logged

Northern Arizona / 1983 - MC9
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!