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Author Topic: 8V71 with 7E55 injector  (Read 11708 times)
OneLapper
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« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2008, 08:13:22 PM »

It appears that the PBT number is the factory option code for a particular item the engine had.  Example:  INJECTOR 113 is for a C60 injector and that means the engine was delivered from the factory with that injector, not the 7E55 injectors that are in it now.  I found a website that sell parts that list application by the PBT number!

Mark
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OneLapper
1964 PD4106-2853
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« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2008, 08:40:03 PM »

The model no. is 7087-4021.  The last four number are for:  4=Left hand rotation  0= N  21= Model Variation.  Does anyone know what the N is for?  As in 8V71N?  My current engine is 4220 which 4=Left hand  2=4 valve head  20= Model Variation.  This other engine has a four valve head, but the code is 0 for N, not 2 for 4 valve head.

Hmmmm.....

Mark
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OneLapper
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JackConrad
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« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2008, 05:41:03 AM »

The model no. is 7087-4021.    Does anyone know what the N is for?  As in 8V71N? 
Mark

This is about 1/2 guess, but I am thinkin' N as in 8V71N which means NORMAL Aspirated (supercharger) as opposed to 8V71 TA which has Turbo charger and aftercooler in addition to supercharger.  Jack
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Growing Older Is Mandatory, Growing Up Is Optional
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« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2008, 06:34:17 AM »

Hi Jack,  I also assumed N is for Normal, but then Normal must also include the four valve heads.  The problem is that there are so few people that still work on these engines, and even fewer that are knowledgeable about the option codes, build sheets, the differences of injectors, cam timing, etc.  At this point, I'd be happy to pay some for an hour of their time just as long as they were able answer my questions.  I called the local DD dealer (which I have a resale charge acct with, so they are familiar with me) and they have one tech that works on the 2 strokes.  When he called me back and asked my question "what are the differences between 7E60 and C60 and N60 injectors?" he didn't know.  He said he only installed what was spec'd on the DD Engine build sheet for the particular engine he was working on and that their shop did not "modify" engines with bigger injectors and changing cam timing.   Alrighty then.  He then suggested I talk with the parts dept, who suggested I talk to service.  Fair enough.  I thanked them for their time and hung up.

I'll figure all this out, it'll just take me a bit longer.

Mark
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OneLapper
1964 PD4106-2853
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ojgetaway32
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« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2008, 10:11:07 AM »

I love this topic.  Here is what little I can provide:

I have a 1983 MC9 with an 8V71N and 5 speed manual.  The engine numbers are SN 8VA 430520-1 and the model is 7087-7527.  I just had the engine rebuilt professionally with 7E65 injectors.  It runs much better.  I am used to big HP engines like a Cat 3406B,C @425+.  One cannot expect to get Cat performance out of 2 stroke Detroit, but for what I do with it, I will live.  It does fly except for on hills.  Yes it does smoke black under heavy fuel.  This just means you gotta learn how to drive it to maximize pulling while minimizing smoke.  I wish it was more powerful but I also wish it was Cat 3406B ATAAC with a 13 speed and vertical exhaust.  If I find ever find a 8V92TA with an auto all ready to go, I may do it but it is not a priority.  The only thing I would like to do is actaully get the supercharger more air.  I think, and I could be wrong, but if I got it more air it may not smoke as much and have just a smidge more power, but all things being equal I would rather spend money on inmotion satellite and a leather J lounge.  Black smoke is unburnt fuel right?  If I get it more air, won't it help burn the fuel?  If I can help anybody please let me know.
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Josh Miller, Attorney, hockey player, son, brother, friend and busnut...
1983 MCI MC9 8V71 and a 5 Speed
Wheeling, WV
makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2008, 10:29:53 AM »

O32, change the gear ratio on your blower it will help there are several different ratios for the blower from a DD dealer
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ojgetaway32
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« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2008, 10:38:18 AM »

Hey Makemine:

I have never heard of that, but I will investigate.  Sounds great!  Thank you.

O32...
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Josh Miller, Attorney, hockey player, son, brother, friend and busnut...
1983 MCI MC9 8V71 and a 5 Speed
Wheeling, WV
OneLapper
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« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2008, 02:16:34 PM »

032, the last four of your model number indicate the following:  7 = Right hand Rotation with starter on the lower Left and oil cooler on the lower Right, as view from the flywheel.  5 = Customer spec'd engine configuration.  27 =  is the specific model variation number.  To get all the details of the engine build as it was delivered by DD, you can ask the parts dept at a DD dealer to fax it over to you.

BTW, can you find out what the cam timing was that your engine builder used?  I'd be interested to know if it was 1.496 which, interestingly, is the same timing spec'd for the 7E55 injector.  The 7E60 injector is 1.500 for cam timing.  You may be able to reduce the amount of smoke if the cam timing can be advanced to correct setting, assuming that it hasn't been done.  I should certainly hope that your engine builder advanced the cam timing.  Go ahead, call him and ask!  We all want to know!

Mark
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OneLapper
1964 PD4106-2853
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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2008, 02:52:15 PM »

Onelapper; the engine build on a 30 year old engine is not going to be the same if it had stayed in the DD dealers network it's entire life it would but the engines have been changed from right to left, left to right, cams, liners and pistions,valves ,fuel pumps,governors you name it it has been done to these engines and every DD mechanic has a box full of timing gauges that he uses for what he thinks gives the best performance.But the build sheet is good reading material, you will not find 1 in 100 that is built by the original sheet there is probably 40 or more different injectors made for the 71 series  fwiw
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 03:10:17 PM by makemineatwostroke » Logged
OneLapper
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« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2008, 06:33:44 PM »

twostroke, I think you're probably spot on.  I can't imagine that too many engine have existed as they were originally built.  BUT, as the owner of John Deere dealership, I can say that 90% or more of our institutions and municipalities buy Deere parts for their equipment.  We rebuild several engines a month for customers that need their equipment to be as close to original as possible because it may be repaired at different dealers for whatever reason.  We go by the tech manuals to the letter to ensure the job is done correctly.  Besides, I have to put my money where my mouth is because I warranty that job.  One of my part time techs works for the local transit bus company.  They do zero engine rebuilds.  They all get sent out to engine dealer.  He'll be the first to tell you that he's a parts swapper!

I'm still waiting for a call back from a DD tech that is reputed to know the answer to my questions on injectors.  Will update when I talk to him.

Mark
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OneLapper
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« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2008, 06:43:24 PM »

Mark, you being a Deere dealer you shold love your 8v71 fwiw Deere cast all the blocks and heads for the 8v71
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ojgetaway32
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« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2008, 06:22:53 AM »

I called my builder, he is going to talk to the mechanic at lunch to verify the cam timing and also about the blower drive ratio.  You guys are money!
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Josh Miller, Attorney, hockey player, son, brother, friend and busnut...
1983 MCI MC9 8V71 and a 5 Speed
Wheeling, WV
OneLapper
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« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2008, 04:56:42 PM »

I spent some time on the phone with jobbersinc.com outta PA.  Their parts guy was very helpful.  Here is a synopsis of his answers:

C series injectors (ie:C65) were installed in engines delivered to California and New York, or other major cities that had smog laws.  These injectors, in some manner, decrease emissions.

N series injectors (ie:N65) were installed in engines that were used for industrial applications and trucks.  This is the most common injector  used.  Good for 318hp at 2100 rpm in most applications.

7E series injectors (ie: 7E65) were installed in engines that were in coaches.  These injectors are designed for economy and also to somehow reduce the amount of black smoke (unburnt fuel) when tipping into the throttle.

The are all interchangeable provided you change all of the injectors at the same time.  You do need to set the injector timing, but he recommended 1.460 for all of the three series (65s).  He didn't recommend changing the cam timing when going from a 55 series to a 65 series.  I'm not sure about that bit of advice, though.

Any feedback on the above info?



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OneLapper
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« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2008, 06:01:32 PM »

Mark; if you want a 318hp go with 7E65 injectors the problem for you maybe the rpms the 7E65 use less fuel at the 1800 to 2000 rpm range according to DD  not the 1400 to 1800 range  have a great evening
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CraigC
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« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2008, 02:00:22 AM »

Mark

Do you have the service manual for for a 8V71. In the tune up section in the back answers some of your questions. Others you will have to read the entire book in detail for. My newest book is 1995 with many pages that were last up dated in about 1984. It is interesting the older manuals 1970, 1960, 1950 & etc actually have a little more detail then the newest ones. The newer ones work a little more on the parts changer thinking. The older ones go into how to overhaul a generator, starter & much more in great detail. They did not send everything out like today. I do not know all of your answers. The GM 4104 671 had E series engines, low block, 2 value heads, and other differences. The N was a later series engine that a specific port liner size, 4 value value head, later style taller block, I think more compression & etc. One  example  from a 1971 book air lnlet port heights of various engines. 71E 2 value-.703, 71E 4 value-.703, 71T 4 value-.900, 71N -1.050 [ I think all of the N's were 4 value]. To vary the power various injectors having different fuel outputs & type of spray tip used. Like stated already the total of different injector variants is almost uncountable.  60 injectors is the max. size for std value train timing. 65 and above require 1 tooth advanced gear timing. Note in book- injector size 60 and below installed in a A timed engine instead of timing per book of 1.460 use 1.484 until you can change gear train timing as soon as possible. This also is states to do the reverse in a std. timed engine with some  65 and larger injectors. Turbo engines are to remain std timed no matter what the cam timing is, the 1970 book that I am looking mostly calls 1.460 for all of these. Different newer year models use different different injector timings. These engines are unlike nothing else as they have so many variations that they could be assembled. It is said the inline 671 has more possible combinations then any engine other engine ever built. Fun stuff like installing 4 engines 2 LH trun and 2 RH turn to one transmission to basically make one engine is one example. Have you looked at the Volume 1 & 2 parts book, looked at the V71 coach engines parts book, there is a field service manual with a lot of good info. May 1984 it states there is a 7E65 injector that has built-in advance cam shaft timing. I think this means you can use it with a std gear train. I would say it would takes years of training, reading & working on these engines to learn a lot of the variables. There are so many different options for stationary power, truck, marine, forklifts, tractors and anything else that needs power ,that I doubt any one person knows it all.
The 8 digit number on the block is broken down by each number in the first pages of the service manual. If you have the build plate on the value cover that will even go farther as to the way that exact engine left the factory. If that is mission the 8 digit and serial number the dealer can give you a print out of it. I think this option is still available.
I am not an expert by any means, I have read all of the book mentioned above and more cover to cover more then once. Each time I am surprised at what I missed last time. Maybe there is to much to absorb with just a few readings of one manaul. Just in general knowing knowing where in the book is enough, makes it easy to look up when needed. I use a yellow hi lighter for the very important in various sections. I am only touching the tip of the iceberg here. You could make a hobby of learning the variables and various options of these engines. They have also updated many parts as they went along as direct replacements. Many of the parts do not show up in the new computer parts computer listing as currently available. The young parts man may tell you they never made that. You could have part in hand and even a old parts manual but occassionall as the number is superced several times it end in a dead end with the DD parts computer on some of our old stuff.Series 53, 71, 92, 149 cubic inches per cylinder. I think I remember the following correctly- number of cylinders for one engine. 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 6V, 8V, 12V, 12, 16V, 20. The 20 was a 149 cu, inch. per cylinders for some train locomotives not as sucessful a engine as the 16-149. A inline 671 in a bus might have been 175 hp, truck 238hp, turbo truck 275 to 300, marine appliaction 425 to 450hp. We are talking WWII these last 2 engines were in marine landing craft. As I remember they ran these engines at 4,000+ rpm's for a while at full battle speed their life expectency was 45 minutes, one trip to the beach. Later they slowed those engines down to about 3600 and the props stopped cavating, more speed, and longer life. You could install 2 engine via a common transmission. or 4-671's [ 24 cylinders ] to a common trans. each of these engines were complete independent separate engines. 
I Hope this is of some help.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 09:08:51 PM by CraigC » Logged

Craig C
4104 8V71TA/V730
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