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Author Topic: pro's and con's regarding external radiator side air dams for extra cooling  (Read 4847 times)
RickB
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« on: September 17, 2008, 05:04:25 AM »

Hi all,

Whats the scoop on those external radiator air scoops that I see on so many older MCI's?

First of all, what is their exact title?

Obviously, they must lower engine operating temps but what do they do to fuel mileage?

Finally, where would one go about buying one?

Thanks in advance,
Rick
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JackConrad
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2008, 05:22:25 AM »

   Our MC-8 was equipped with these when we bought it. We removed them when we painted the bus and did a short trip without them.  We saw differnece in engine temps. We did re-install them (since we already had them).  Are they worth spinding the money to purchase them??  I am not sure. If you have overheating problems, you need to repair the problem, not apply band-aids.  Jack
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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2008, 07:38:26 AM »

You can find them here = http://www.rm-fiberglass.com/bus/model/40.html

I thought about getting some to help pull in some hot air to help warm the radiators while driving. Grin

Like Jack said fix the problem.
After installing new radiators, thermostats, hoses and just a good cooling system overhaul, you won’t need them.

Radiator Air Scoops
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MCI-9
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belfert
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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2008, 08:40:19 AM »

I agree with Jack.  Fix any cooling system problems first before applying bandaids.

I was having cooling problems with my bus even with a four stroke Series 60.  I seriously considered venting the engine compartment door.  Finally, I took out the radiator and had it cleaned at a radiator shop.  The radiator shop rodded it out and found leak stop had been used due to pinhole leaks.  They offered the choice of closing off the bad tubes or a new core.  I choose the new core.

The new radiator core along with new water pump and thermostats fixed all my problems.  Only the steepest grade on I80 through Utah caused the temp to rise about 5 degrees above normal.  (195 is normal.)
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
Lin
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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2008, 10:00:56 AM »

There do not seem to be any "cons" listed, other than they are no substitute for thorough maintenance.  The same could be said for other devices like misters, etc.  Depending on the situation, I would still consider them.  We live in a desert so I tend to think that every advantage is worth looking at.  I would wonder though, at what speed they begin to help since you need the extra cooling most while climbing, and that is most likely to be done at low speeds.
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edroelle
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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2008, 10:06:50 AM »

As everyone said, you want to fix problems first.  But MCIs are noted for their marginal cooling.   Over the years MCI has improved their cooling by going to larger radiators, larger fans, and smaller fan pulleys.  (Door seals and fans seals need to be good too.)

A number of years ago, Bus Trader magazine ran a test that showed the air scoops helped cooling. 

The air scoops can be one of the elements, to help keep your engine cool.

Ed Roelle
Flint, MI
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luvrbus
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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2008, 10:08:56 AM »

Do you a poor mans wind tunnel test with yarn tied to the bus I know scopes do no good on a Eagle I did a test for Gary L a month ago and it was a dead space were he he wanted to install them, Richard at R&M will tell you they are for appearance mostly FWIW
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 10:19:14 AM by luvrbus » Logged
belfert
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2008, 10:19:53 AM »

I wouldn't be against adding air scoops, but make sure everything else is in tip top shape first.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
Lin
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2008, 10:34:26 AM »

Fred Hobe has instructions for making scoops on page 6 of his website.

http://users.cwnet.com/~thall/fredhobe6.htm
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buswarrior
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2008, 11:32:08 AM »

Fred Hobe has done some work with a fellow with the aeronautical background to do the math, and some seat of the pants experiments up and down the I75.

Note the much larger size of Fred's scoops, and how they come much further forward over the radiator opening.

For those who don't know, Fred has a turbo on his 8V71 and is closer to a military spec output in horsepower, so he needs a cooling system in top shape.

He might have been heard to call those small fibreglass ones "Mickey Mouse Ears" and from his work, are found to create a swirl of air that EXITS the radiator area, not drive it in.

One of Fred's later test scoops was actually being restricted by the blower fans at highway speed, (and he has the smaller pully on them!) and passed more air with the fan door open on his MC8!!! Took some nerve to run it with the fan door open, watching the temps rise, then start falling again, as the scoops did their thing.

As with many things, the return on investment required to continue the experiments wasn't worth it, since few of us will buy things, and would just copy the final product for free...

But if you want a set of those small ones, I've got a pair for $25!

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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HB of CJ
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2008, 01:27:47 PM »

Did very heavy duty cooling systems come from the factory?  Reason I ask is that, way back in 1970, we had some old MCI 35 footers with 8V71N's and 4 speeds that had been purchased used from some Nevada bus transit company.  Tona-paw to something or whatever.

The mechanics told us that the coaches had huge radiators and fans.  Anyway, the buses never overheated on us, even at 10,000 feet.  Yosemite Park and Curry Company.  Tioga Pass.  Years ago.  Ancient history.  Are we all getting really old here?   AUGGHHHHH!  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2008, 02:58:22 PM »

Quote from: HB of CJ
Did very heavy duty cooling systems come from the factory?  Reason I ask is that, way back in 1970, we had some old MCI 35 footers with 8V71N's and 4 speeds that had been purchased used from some Nevada bus transit company.  Tona-paw to something or whatever.

The mechanics told us that the coaches had huge radiators and fans.  Anyway, the buses never overheated on us, even at 10,000 feet.  Yosemite Park and Curry Company.  Tioga Pass.  Years ago.  Ancient history.  Are we all getting really old here?   AUGGHHHHH!  Smiley Smiley Smiley

I have no idea about the coaches you ask about, but they could have been the start of standard larger radiators. Also a manual transmission bus will always run cooler than an automatic if all other conditions are the same.
#1) Manual transmissions do not generate near as much heat as automatics.
#2) Automatic equipped buses actually use the engines cooling system to also cool the transmission!
#3) Manual transmissions are more energy efficient than automatics, which means less loss of horsepower to the wheels.

FWIW Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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Lin
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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2008, 03:21:02 PM »

BK,
     Yeah, but you have to shift that manual.  With the automatic, you can just put it in gear and go make a sandwich.
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RickB
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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2008, 03:32:50 PM »

I am such a wimp when it comes to operating temps. I turned around at the first major pass in Colorado because my temp gauge reached just shy of 200 degrees. I think Brian Diehl wanted to give me a good swift kick in the rear rend!! If it is above 85 outside and I drive my bus with the air on or the toad behind I approach 190 so I certainly don't think I have a system failure, it's more of an operator failure...  and I must admit, right or wrong, two things I will probably never get used to:
Holding my throttle wide open and anything over 180 degrees.

I was wondering if the air sccops would provide just a little more cooling without ruining my already poor 6-7 mpg. I read that our mirrors are worth over a mile per gallon, so I assume that these scoops have to be pretty inefficient as well. Has anyone ever given any thought to putting a couple of inexpensive side aimed cameras mounted inside aerodynamic housings on the outside of their bus feeding a couple of screens in the dash area to eliminate mirrors entirely?   Just a thought...
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Ednj
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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2008, 04:45:13 PM »

I read that our mirrors are worth over a mile per gallon, so I assume that these scoops have to be pretty inefficient as well. Has anyone ever given any thought to putting a couple of inexpensive side aimed cameras mounted inside aerodynamic housings on the outside of their bus feeding a couple of screens in the dash area to eliminate mirrors entirely?   Just a thought...




Bill has them on his Eagle. Cool
Hard to see in this picture but they are there.
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MCI-9
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See my picture's at= http://groups.yahoo.com/group/busshellconverters/
That's Not Oil Dripping under my Bus, It's Sweat from all that Horsepower.
----- This space for rent. -----
luvrbus
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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2008, 05:01:47 PM »

Rick, I have side cameras on my Eagle but still have the mirrors mine have to be switched manually ,they have a system now that automatically changes when using the turn signals next on my list of got to have
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buswarrior
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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2008, 05:19:46 PM »

You want to kick whoever suggested to you that the mirrors obstruct enough wind to harm your fuel economy by a mile to the gallon. NOT true.

Folks, there is little that we, or the original owners of these coaches, who had a far bigger fuel bill than we'll ever see, can do to improve the fuel economy, short of just running the engine in the sweet spot, which means slower than the Warp speed that North Americans seem addicted to.

No effort or money spent by a busnut will ever be recouped in enough fuel savings to pay for the job.

Don't run the engine except to push the bus. stop idling. 8 cents of fuel a minute goes out the pipe on the idle, more on the fast idle. Accelerate with a gentle foot, don't floor it. Run at or below the speed limit, depending on your gearing. Nobody will mind, if you drive over in the right lane where a slower moving vehicle belongs. What treasures are you dragging around in the coach that should be staying at home?

Pushing wind, speed is your biggest variable, putting the coach on a diet will help a little.

As for the radiator scoops affecting fuel economy, the rad already sucks in vast quantities of air, which is as good as a wall, the scoops just make it easier for the fans to pull in a little bit more. You won't be able to measure the difference they may make in drag using your fuel bill.

So, here's another bunch of stuff you've read....

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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David Anderson
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2008, 06:37:15 PM »

Like Lin said, you need them most while climbing and that is when the speed is slow, so there will be little ram air effect.  Check out these old posts.  Maybe they will help.

David


http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=1464.0


http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=4808.0
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belfert
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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2008, 08:27:10 PM »

Holding my throttle wide open and anything over 180 degrees.

If you are scared of anything over 180 degrees you would hate my Series 60.  It runs at 195 degrees all day long.  The mechanical temp gauge in the rear reads slightly higher.  Even crossing the Rockies on I80 I only went above 195 on one grade outside Salt Lake City.

Busted Knuckle says every factory installed Series 60 he has driven runs 195 to 200 all day long.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
luvrbus
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« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2008, 08:49:09 PM »

doesn't hurt a 2 stroke to run 195 all day either, I am not one for the band aid fixes i see guys running with the tail gate open spraying water with mister systems and home made air scoops if the engine is running hot there is a problem fix it and forget it
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2008, 08:55:16 PM »

Holding my throttle wide open and anything over 180 degrees.

If you are scared of anything over 180 degrees you would hate my Series 60.  It runs at 195 degrees all day long.  The mechanical temp gauge in the rear reads slightly higher.  Even crossing the Rockies on I80 I only went above 195 on one grade outside Salt Lake City.

Busted Knuckle says every factory installed Series 60 he has driven runs 195 to 200 all day long.

Brian while it is true that I did in fact tell you this. It was before we replaced the air to air charge cooler, and thoroughly cleaned the radiator out on my '95 Setra 45' 60 Series and B500! It now cruises all day long @160-165-170 while on cruise control.(yes I do use it as it saves fuel @ 74 instead of 80+/- mph). And for those time when I put my foot in it and "let 'r roll" at +/- warp speed it still never gets over 180-185!
So while all the others I have previously operated have run 195-200 all day long (including my 45' Setra running 200-210 all day long before the cleaning of the radiator and replacing the air to air cooler!), I have since found out that when RIGHT they do run cooler and better! FWIW Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
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« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2008, 09:00:38 PM »

I've had the intercooler cleaned and holes fixed and replaced the radiator, water pump, and thermostats and it still runs at 195 degrees.

I'm not worried about it since it no longer rises above 195 degrees.  It used to start rising on the slightest grade.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2008, 10:07:26 AM »

BK,
     Are the scoops you have like the ones on Fred Hobe's site?  I though his were actually built onto the screen.  If they would work with my 5a, I'll take them if they are not spoken for.
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« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2008, 03:10:21 PM »

BK,
     Are the scoops you have like the ones on Fred Hobe's site?  I though his were actually built onto the screen.  If they would work with my 5a, I'll take them if they are not spoken for.

Lin,
I believe you meant BW, as I don't have any! No problem, just thought I'd correct it so BW would get the credit.  Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
Lin
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« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2008, 04:06:26 PM »

Boy, is my face red!  I've got to learn which way to point that rattle can.

BW, are you out there?
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buswarrior
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« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2008, 04:24:16 PM »

I have a pair of the smaller fibreglass ones that you rivet or bolt up to the back of the screens hiding somewhere in the shop, not the bigger ones that Fred has shown on his site.

As for the slower speed of hill climbing, you still get a breeze at 30 mph that can be taken advantage of...

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Lin
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« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2008, 04:57:23 PM »

If I am going to do it, it might as well be as large as reasonable.  Besides, I like the idea of having them built onto the screens.  Thanks,
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Tony LEE
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2008, 12:45:37 PM »

Don't know about there, but here in Oz, only side-lights and rear-view mirrors are exempted from the width measurement. Anything else sticking out has to be within the 2500mm (98 1/2") maximum width. Adding a couple of Fred's scoops would put it over the limit.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2008, 12:53:45 PM »

Tony, here it is 102 inches and mirrors are exempt   
good luck
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buswarrior
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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2008, 01:28:21 PM »

Fred's 3" scoops on a 96" wide coach keep it within the allowable North American 102" width.

The newer 102 wide coaches have larger radiators to begin with, so the playing field starts off on higher ground if you are in need of re-power cooling.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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