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Author Topic: WVO in two strokes, saw a friends 80 gallon kit, his 4 stroke Ford runs great  (Read 7302 times)
RickB
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« on: September 26, 2008, 08:31:41 PM »

$1.30 a gallon. 3 three hours of work. Sounds awfully good to me...

I am sure you guys have got alot of opinions about this so I'm all ears.
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2008, 08:17:43 AM »

I hope they are big ears! LOL! I don't have any knowledge either good or bad but I can assure you many here will have something to say! LOL! Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2008, 02:23:06 PM »

I also have absolutely no knowlege about it, but at $1.30 a gallon, you certainly have my attention!  Wonder how it would work in an older Big Cam Cummins?  Hummm.  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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kyle4501
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2008, 04:32:40 PM »

I know a busnut who ran WVO in his turbo diesel. He got just over 20,000 miles before the turbo locked up.

He ain't saying the WVO caused it, but he is saying that he ain't gonna run WVO in his other two turbo diesel cars.

I'm not gonna out him here, as it's up to him to make his personal details public.  Shocked


One thing that gets my attention concerning WVO is that there aren't many that do it long term.
Seems to me if it was "the real deal", more would be doing it . . . . .

I also haven't heard of a successful documented high mileage engine . . . . .

As for me, the mess, storage, finding stock, time, etc all add up to make pump diesel cheaper.

Besides, I can afford to fill up easier than I can afford to replace my motor.
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RickB
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2008, 05:50:56 PM »

With all due respect the guy who showed me the kit, which arrives completely assembled on a single pallet and sells at around 7k, owns a hi performance boat shop and he had his crew just take the heads and the pan off one of his trucks and they were still disassembled when I met him last week and they showed me pictures of the heads and valves 50k miles ago before the conversion and I was there, this was not something I didn't see with my own eyes and ALL THE SOOT THAT WAS ON THE VALVES IN THE BEFORE PICTURES WAS GONE. He said it runs much quieter as well. The loss is about a 3% loss in cetane and if that was an issue he said the after market boosters will bring it up to normal cetane levels for $5 per 80 gallon batch. If I do this I may want to pursue that route because of my 8V71 and it's lack of power issues.
If you want to know how popular it is just try going to your local restaurant and see if they'll let you dispose of their oil. McDonalds , Burger King all of the major chains are either selling their oil to converters or starting their own conversion sites to run their delivery trucks. Can you imagine McDiesel fuel?
The biggest issues in my opinion are pure safety issues Methanol not only burns clear and odorless it also burns your skins nerve cells so fast you actually don't feel you're on fire when you are. The better kits are safer because you simply tap the 55 gallon drum of methanol, it uses about 12 gallons of methanol per 80 gallon batch and never touch the barrel again till it's empty. It seems that alot of the rumors surrounding the use of WVO are usually engine related or tax related. To me the engine questionss always ring of Oil Company urban legends designed to make us afraid to leave their udder and get milk elsewhere. The fact is Diesel intended these motors to run on Peanut oil when he invented them. The shop had an obvious smell and I could feel it in my eyes so ventilation and location are primary concerns. In fact I think it is illegal to have methanol within the city limits of most cities. The tax issue will at some point be unavoidable but it seems to me that they can only tax you on what you have in your posession. 150 gallons of fuel that passes EPA standards and WVO does pass those tests with flying colors would only pay about half of #2 diesel.It varies from state to state but I can't imagine the fine would be more than $20.

Meanwhile any evidence for tax evasion is in the atmosphere..

It's not like running the dyed off road stuff because there is legislation in place against that.
I'm sure many folks out there have done their resaerch on this subject but could we keep any unsubstantiated claims of engine damage to a minimum. Rumors we have  heard or what a friend told another friend you have never met needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I was a non believer because of fear of what it may do to my engine based on rumors. I'd like some real empirical evidence that the fuel Diesel intended his invention to run on is more damaging than the current fuel that wasn't even available in his time. Heck I sure don't wanna hurt my motor but truth is I KNOW what future consistent $5 diesel is gonna do to my and many others engines. It's going to permanently shut them off.
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Jerry W Campbell
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2008, 06:36:22 PM »


Are we talking about WVO or Bio Diesel?
Jerry
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Sojourner
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2008, 07:50:20 PM »

This is my reason for not going into WVO.

So far everyone here that converts to WVO has not responded to say “it the way to go” reports.

Here one about picking up cold grease and hard to find in today market or free:
http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/alternative-fuels-additives-oils-lubricants/43919-wvo-sources-help.html

Hard to find WVO and rundown of what to expect of how to avoid starting problem when engine is cooled (75°F). Read the MotorOilMccall’s posts:
http://www.dieselbombers.com/alternative-fuels-additives-fluids/15447-waste-vegetable-oil.html

The bottom-line about WVO is;
1)   No guarantee that you will find WVO without a written contract with the source.
2)   You have to maintain pick-up schedule or they have someone else to take over.
3)   Remember you maybe not the only WVO user nearby, so don’t advertise. 
4)   All WVO source are to be warmed before you can suck it into your barrel.
5)   High set-up cost and/or labor to convert vehicle to WVO.
6)   Your labor of time to get WVO processed to be diesel ready.
7)   Expect trouble downtime on the road until you are well experience WVO user.
8]   Before shut down, always switch to diesel fuel the last 5 miles to clean out WVO in fuel system for starting after over night stop cool down.
9)   Have fun whatever you choose. It good experience to have for your background history.

BTW…$7000 kit + $5 per 80 gal of WVO at $1.30 per gal. Which mean if diesel is $4.25 per gal, you have use 2423 gallons of WVO to break even without the cost of processing it.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2008, 07:56:04 PM »

RickB, your first post referenced WVO & asked for opinions, but when you got one that was negative, you went off on unsubstantiated claims . . . .  I've ridden in (while it was still running) & have seen & touched the locked turbo. So if that isn't substantial enough for you . . . .  Wink
I remember the abuse one got for posting his failure, seems many proponents accused him of doing it wrong. . . .
BTW, it is very embarrassing to admit you toasted your equipment trying this experiment, so don't expect many confessions.  Roll Eyes


Anyway, now that you've added more info including methanol & the $7000 'kit', it sounds like bio-diesel to me. & for those that don't know, there is a lot of difference between the two. Bio runs lots cleaner, so it's no surprise that the engine is cleaner after running it.

I HAVE talked to local restaurants about getting their waste oil. In many cases it is a logistics issue. They must have reliable disposal of their waste oil & the haulers are providing a tank for them to use.

In many areas, if you have more than 5 gallons of waste oil, you must have a permit to haul it. You can guess what the fine is, but I suggest you find out for a fact. I have NEVER seen a fine that low.

Bio diesel has a limited storage life too, so that is another issue to be dealt with.
Have you looked into the costs to properly dispose of a significant quantity of it if a batch goes bad?


If one was to look past the sales hype, the conspiracy theories, the 'free lunch', etc and actually LEARN what is happening in the refining process to make bio diesel, you would realize it carries a significant risk with it. Some are fine with that & that is not the problem. The problem arises when those risks are minimized to the point some think they are insignificant & don't treat the process with the respect it deserves.
Would you want a neighbor running a chemical processing plant (with all the associated hazardous stuff) without any regulatory oversight? What if the product was explosive?




I've said it before, & it bears repeating, If bio diesel was anywhere close to the hype (concerning cost & "great benefits to the world"), the big business would have already pushed it to the market. As it is, the only thing being pushed to market is a 'kit' so you can get rich quick.

I see a lot of similarities between bio diesel & the ethanol debacle.


If you have the time & resources, go for it. But that $1.30 per gallon is pure B.S. unless they will sell you as much as you need for that. Once 'they' count their indirect cost, it will go up.  Sad
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RickB
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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2008, 11:57:04 PM »

Thanks for the clarification in my subject heading. Yes indeed I am talking about biodiesel. Sorry about the gaffe.
The reason I suggested the "stick to what we know discussion and not the rumor mill" is we are, as a group,incredibly touchy and protective of our expensive diesel engines. There is good cause for that but it could work against us if we don't have solid facts within our "protection" process. I honestly meant no offense to anyone through that suggestion.

Also, I do believe there is fairly general consensus that Oil Companies are not big on sharing the market with anything that threatens their position. The probability that they will work diligently against alternative energy in any form is a pretty fair assumption as well. Manipulating data on possible competitors is an excepted business practice after all.

What is the reasoning behind the alternative fuels cause of the turbo seizure? I am assuming the exhaust gas temps were believed to be too high. Is that correct?
Most of the research I have read suggests that Biodiesel burns much cooler than petroleum diesel.

I seized a turbo on my previous 6v92 and after reading about similar failures I assumed it probably failed because of a quick temp spike inherent in the wet sleeve system or an inadequate oil issue or it just plumb wore out.

Most converters would say that $1.30 is a high per gallon price. Some have claimed it is closer to 80 cents a gallon. I was just trying to be conservative. What is everyone hearing as far as price per gallon?

One of the arguments that talked me out of this years ago was: It takes hours and hours of time. Well, after witnessing part of the process, yes many of the individual processes involved take hours and hours of time (for example "drying" can take a week)but the actual time you spend working, mixing,collecting,pumping and testing is around 3 hours a batch.The rest of those hours you are free to roam about the cabin.Although I did not witness a full process I did watch my friend start a couple processes in the course of a football game we were watching nearby. Anyone have any similar or differing comments on that?

I do think the reason given that most people haven't written in their experiences good and bad is unfortunately correct.

Maybe, because we aren't face to face, blog's can become at times... shall we say a little short on tact and a little long on embarassing other folks, and condescending tone.
It's good to remember that all of us here are just trying to get real objective input with which we can make sound decisions and obviously meanwhile we get to talk about our passion... Buses.

I am sure I don't know nearly as much about buses as most of you do and I am grateful for your combined knowledge.

"I think human interaction is easier when brilliant minds sound like they don't have a clue that they are brilliant."  Bob Dylan

Words to blog by...
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kyle4501
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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2008, 06:41:48 AM »

. . . . . . I honestly meant no offense to anyone through that suggestion.
None taken, just clarifying   Grin

Also, I do believe there is fairly general consensus that Oil Companies are not big on sharing the market with anything that threatens their position. The probability that they will work diligently against alternative energy in any form is a pretty fair assumption as well. Manipulating data on possible competitors is an excepted business practice after all.
I think big business is big because they sieze ALL opportunity to make a buck. Conspiracy theories are seldom proven. I believe fuels are way more complex than most realize. The byproducts of combustion have a HUGE impact.

What is the reasoning behind the alternative fuels cause of the turbo seizure? I am assuming the exhaust gas temps were believed to be too high. Is that correct?
No, again, he was running WVO & it left deopsits behind.

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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2008, 07:04:21 AM »

I know three people co-operatively doing bio-deisel. The mess, the expense, the time involved, cannot possibly be worth it. But they are having a heck of a lot of fun and beating the system, so they are happy.
 If I had a bit more ambition, I would be selling Bio-Deisel factorys, That is where the real money is in home brew deisel!!!
                                                        Jim
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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2008, 07:13:36 AM »

I have heard it said that the people who made the most money during the gold rush were selling picks and shovels.
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2008, 07:40:55 AM »

now having a bit of experience with both WVO, Home brewed Bio and Commercial Bio....

it really is not worth the expense, hastle, headache....unless you are living on the far left and are an Idealist.

Yes there are people who have had great sucess with all of the above.  Most of which are funded by commercial entities.
there are some private vehicles which have had OK sucess too.

Now having talked to alot of folks whoa re doing this....most of which are self proclaimed lefty Idealist.......they admit they will not post any negative results or experiences as it is contray to thier message.

I many many hours of online research I found maybe 1/2 of 1% of articles/studies which mentioned anything negative.

Very very little about cold weather operations and the related issues there.
Little about being on the road and not being able to find fuel
little about getting stuck on the side of the road with any number of breakdown issues.

Also note that most of these people are using older vehicles, seems not even the rich leftists are willing to risk thier 80,000 MB Diesels

Also, if it were so efficient and cheap...why would other countries that are not so Dino Fuel Dependant just making thier own Bio.

Seems China who has billions of citizens and what we can call a captive workforce could easily supply all of thier own fuel........in house......if it were legitimate....nope, they BUY just like we do.
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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2008, 09:35:57 AM »

[quote author=Len Silva link=topic=9689.msg97246#msg97246 date=1222611216]
I have heard it said that the people who made the most money during the gold rush were selling picks and shovels.
[/quote]


 I think  a fellow named Levi Strauss? Did pretty good also. I wonder in the Bio guys need pants??   Jim
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2008, 11:17:01 AM »

Levi and Strauss were two people.  I forget the whole story, but one came up with the pants, and the other brought him the idea of riveting critical seams.  Originally they had rivets in the crotch, but they cut that out when customers complained of heat transfer when sitting close to the fire.  It may be myth, but that's what I heard.

On subject, I would love to use cheap biodiesel, but no matter how good it is, I do not use enough to justify making it myself.  If a neighbor was doing it, I would consider buying some though.
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