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Author Topic: large single tires instead of duals  (Read 8914 times)
uncle ned
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« on: June 19, 2006, 08:18:41 AM »

Just saw a bunch of new trucks leaving the freightliner plant in cleveland nc. Most all of them had single tires on the rear.Sure did look funny but must be a reason for this.

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WEC4104
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2006, 09:12:46 AM »

The upside includes

- Reduced weight, both in tires and wheels. Since it is spinning weight it is even more important than static weight.

- Reduced rolling resistance, primarily because there are fewer side walls flexing.

- Elimination of problems with dual tire pairs potentially having mis-matched diameters or tire pressures.

Downside includes

- With a flat you have no limp home mode.  (Although some designs are "run-flat" types)

- With regular tires up front, and the "super singles" on the rear, what do you carry for a spare?

- Not all tire shops stock these or have the equipment to service them.


Super singles on semis has caught on more in Europe than here in the states.
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2006, 09:31:12 AM »

Yes they've been around in europe for a while, and also here in the US (fuel tankers have been running them for years!) and they are becoming pretty popular here now days! All the major cross-country companies are specing their new trucks with them! BK
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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TomC
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2006, 02:05:20 PM »

Here's the skinny on the fatty tires.  Michelin did the creating of the X-0ne's.  While tankers, concrete mixers and others have been using super singles for years, these tires (385/65R22.5, 425/65R-22.5, 445/65R-22.5) are the standard super singles that are aimed at construction and local use.  They are not for cross country use (65mph max).  The Michelin X-0ne (445/50R-22.5) is a 75 mph tire and is a direct size replacement for the 275/80R-22.5 or 295/75R-22.5.  Also is the 455/55R-22.5 which is a direct replacement for the 11R-22.5.  If you can't find a replacement single it is approved to run duals-even with three singles still on the truck.  As stated, they will save 300lb over 8 drive tires, get 3-5% better fuel mileage-because of less rolling resistance, and it has been proven in fleets that their blow out/flat rate goes down to 20% of duallies! 
The only buses that can run these tires are the GMC 4501, Crown and Gillig 40ft'r with tandem axles. THEY ARE NOT YET RATED FOR SINGLE AXLE USAGE-TANDEM ONLY!  They do use them on single axle tanker trailers, but are not approved for single axle use on a truck or bus.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2006, 03:39:48 PM »

Tom thanks for the "Skinny on Fatty tires!" I'm waiting on the day I can get 'm for my Setra! BK  Roll Eyes Cool Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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Kristinsgrandpa
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2006, 05:56:09 PM »

About 25 or 30 years ago  on the 6 o'clock news in Huntington WV.  WSAZ chan 3, it showed a concrete truck that was sitting at a traffic signal and had a blow out on a super single causing the truck to capsize (the concrete drum was rotating) and crush the car sitting at a parking meter beside it.

   It also crushed the man that was sittiing in the car.

They should be outlawed for use on concrete trucks.

Ed
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TomC
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2006, 09:08:41 AM »

25 to 30 years is a long time to have improvements done on any tire.  Super singles are much more reliable than duallies (has been proven in fleet use).Concrete mixers and tankers use them to get more carrrying capacity.  Long haul the same, but also better fuel mileage.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2006, 11:47:48 AM »

Does that mean that they wont blow out now?

Ed
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2006, 12:39:59 PM »

Does that mean that they wont blow out now?
Ed

No not necessarily, but it means improvments have been made! Also how about some particulars on the "bad incident" you saw 25 to 30 yrs ago? Was the tire in bad shape? Did the concrete truck come to a sudden stop? Was the concrete truck actually stopped or try'n to get stopped? Was the truck actually cornering when it rolled? Was the drum overloaded, or out of balance and spinnig to fast for conditions? Was the truck properly maintianed on a regular basis? You see I've been around tow trucks all my life and not always but usually there are more than 1 variable causing accidents and yes sometimes "just plain ol' freak accidents" happen! BK Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
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Burgermeister
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2006, 02:00:06 PM »

Tom, 

Can you explain, for those who don't know, what you meant by:

[The only buses that can run these tires are the GMC 4501, Crown and Gillig 40ft'r with tandem axles.] THEY ARE NOT YET RATED FOR SINGLE AXLE USAGE-TANDEM ONLY!  They do use them on single axle tanker trailers, but are not approved for single axle use on a truck or bus.   

I read you to mean these tires can only be used on those busses with dual drive axles in the rear, not two axle or tag axle equipped busses
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phil4501
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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2006, 05:35:39 PM »

Tom, 

Can you explain, for those who don't know, what you meant by:

[The only buses that can run these tires are the GMC 4501, Crown and Gillig 40ft'r with tandem axles.] THEY ARE NOT YET RATED FOR SINGLE AXLE USAGE-TANDEM ONLY!  They do use them on single axle tanker trailers, but are not approved for single axle use on a truck or bus.   

I read you to mean these tires can only be used on those busses with dual drive axles in the rear, not two axle or tag axle equipped busses
C'est Ca? Monseuir?
All those buses do not have dual drive axles, I believe they are all tags. I know the 4501 is for sure, I can't swear to the schoolies though.

Does anyone on the board have experience with these tires on a bus?
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DrivingMissLazy
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2006, 06:04:26 PM »

They are all dual axle dualies, are they not?
Richard

Tom, 

Can you explain, for those who don't know, what you meant by:

[The only buses that can run these tires are the GMC 4501, Crown and Gillig 40ft'r with tandem axles.] THEY ARE NOT YET RATED FOR SINGLE AXLE USAGE-TANDEM ONLY!  They do use them on single axle tanker trailers, but are not approved for single axle use on a truck or bus.   

I read you to mean these tires can only be used on those busses with dual drive axles in the rear, not two axle or tag axle equipped busses
C'est Ca? Monseuir?
All those buses do not have dual drive axles, I believe they are all tags. I know the 4501 is for sure, I can't swear to the schoolies though.

Does anyone on the board have experience with these tires on a bus?

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phil4501
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2006, 06:14:25 PM »

They are all dual axle dualies, are they not?
Richard.

They are.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 06:16:54 PM by phil4501 » Logged
TomC
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2006, 10:15:13 PM »

What is important is that the 4 X-0nes are replacing the eight tires, whether or not they are 4x4 or 4x2, is not important. It is the load carrying capability that is.  I have a call into Michelin asking about running the X-one on a typical drive and single tire tag situation.  My guess is no, but I'll relay the exact answer when I get it.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2006, 10:53:17 PM »

Don't belive they are dual axel dualies, the drive axel is a dualie but the tag is singels, isn't it?

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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2006, 11:06:57 PM »

Scenicruiser has dual wheels on the tags. I think the other buses mentioned do as well
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2006, 06:50:37 AM »

O.K. I get it ,wondered how you would get that great big tire in that littli shallow tag axel wheelwell.
                             
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2006, 07:52:35 AM »

Correct.  Drive axle has 4 tires and the tag has 2 tires.  4501, Crown and Gillig schooly 40ft'rs have a true truck like tandem using 8 tires.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2006, 08:24:43 AM »

About 4 months ago,I went down to a friend of mine tire shop to talk to him about putting these super singles on my Scenicruiser,taking these low profile tires of numerious brand names and putting them next to a 11R22.5/12R22.5 set-up,their was a big difference in height.This in itself creates a problem for me,in that the bus would sit  lower,and the lower profile look would of look kind of funny in the large well aera of the Scenic.I didn't want my Scenic sitting any closer to the ground then it already was.Anybody wanting to go to this set-up will be spending big bucks,especially on the Alcoas.The cost even tho high was not the deciding factor for me,it was the height issue,which also means their would of been some leveling valves to adjust in the rear to bring it level again(not a problem tho),just my .02 worth.....Frank 4501-082
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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2006, 10:38:05 AM »

Are you saying that the super singles are not as tall as the 11R22.5 tire?
Richard

About 4 months ago,I went down to a friend of mine tire shop to talk to him about putting these super singles on my Scenicruiser,taking these low profile tires of numerious brand names and putting them next to a 11R22.5/12R22.5 set-up,their was a big difference in height.This in itself creates a problem for me,in that the bus would sit  lower,and the lower profile look would of look kind of funny in the large well aera of the Scenic.I didn't want my Scenic sitting any closer to the ground then it already was.Anybody wanting to go to this set-up will be spending big bucks,especially on the Alcoas.The cost even tho high was not the deciding factor for me,it was the height issue,which also means their would of been some leveling valves to adjust in the rear to bring it level again(not a problem tho),just my .02 worth.....Frank 4501-082
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2006, 11:10:04 AM »

Boss, you got me wondering with your comments concerning the tire height.  From your description, it sounds like maybe you took samples of the super singles (unmounted, uninflated) and placed them up against the tires on your coach for comparison.  Noticing a "big difference in height", would mean the overall tire diameter would have to be signifcantly smaller.

Aside from the appearance of having a Scenic "lowrider", and potential ground clearance issues, I began to wonder about other concerns.  Simple geometry says that a smaller diameter means a smaller circumference, and more revolutions per mile.  Could a switch to the super singles really require an axle ratio change? I wouldn't think the tire manufacturers would make it that difficult.    So I popped over to the Michelin website to check things out ...

A traditional 11R22.5 is typically 501 - 503 revs/mile
A traditional 12R22.5  is about 486  revs/mile
A traditional 11R24.5 is typically 476-479 revs / mile

compared to the four models of Michelin X-Ones I found

X-One XDA  518 revs/mile
X-One XDA HT Plus  493 revs/mile (in the larger size)
X-One XZU S  493 revs/mile

So that means the HT Plus and the XZU should actually be slightly taller than the normal 11R22.5.  Compared to the traditional 12R22.5 they should be just a bit smaller. (about 2.3 inches in circumference, or just about 3/4 of an inch shorter).  I'll skip the comparison to the 11R24.5 because of the significant rev/mile spread.

Goodyear's website had super singles with even larger diameters (less revs/mile)

 
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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2006, 12:49:27 PM »

When going to other tire manufacturers other than Michelin, you have to watch to see if you are mixing up the old fashion super singles (385/65, 425/65, 445/65-22.5) that are only rated to 65mph with the new X-ones that are 445/50-22.5 (like the standard low profile 295/75 or 275/80-22.5) or the 455/55-22.5 that is like the 11-22.5 that are rated at 75mph.  According to Michelin, the DO allow using the X-Ones on buses with tags.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2006, 05:57:29 PM »

I have 12R22.5 on my Scenicruiser,when I went down to my friends tire shop,he rolled out all the different brands(no Goodyear tho,they were having problems of some sort with theirs).Putting these tires next to  new 11R22.5/12r22.5 tires,their was roughly a 3'' difference in height,or roughly 1.5"" lower if mounted on the vehicle,this didn't sit well with me.It wouldn't of looked right with the big 12R22.5 on the front.Scenicruisers have some big rear wheel wells.


I remember shortly after when I was fueling up at a gas station,I pulled up next to a fuel truck (truck and trailer) that had the super singles,it looked like it had tonka toy tires on it compared to my 12R22.5.The tires did look good on the set-up tho,partly due to no wheel wells around them.If they were a bit smaller,you could put them on a light duty truck.....*smiling*....Frank 4501-082
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« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2006, 06:03:44 PM »

Frank-personally, I switched my bus from the 12R-22.5 to 11R-24.5, since the 24.5's are more readily available compared to the 12R's, plus they are a bit taller (43.5" compared to 42.6" or 12R has 486rpm and the 11R has 478rpm) I figure anything that might give better fuel mileage is worth a look.  If you run the 16 ply 11R-24.5, the front axle would be rated at 14,320lb compared to the 12R-22.5's at 14,780lb-so you see, very close.  Good Luck,TomC
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