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Author Topic: Electronic engines and ten speed manual transmissions  (Read 4972 times)
Bob Belter
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Eagle 01 //Cummins M-11 Roadranger OD RTO1110




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« on: October 19, 2008, 07:07:39 PM »

Ahoy, All,

I'm curious about how many BusFolk are running modern electronic engines, and manual (ten speed Roadranger) transmissions (NOT Autoshift or ZF). 

In my Eagle -01 I have a Cummins M-11, and an Eaton Fuller Roadranger RTO1110 overdrive transmission. 

Am I the only one doing such?  The fuel mileage is great!!!

Thanks  /s/  Bob

Bob, I changed the spelling of your thread to make easier searching. No other changes.
From "Electrinic engines and ten speed manual transmissions"
To "Electronic engines and ten speed manual transmissions"
 

-DF
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 03:09:49 PM by Dallas » Logged
Tom Y
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2008, 07:38:32 PM »

I'll bite.  How great is it?  Thanks Tom Y
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Tom Yaegle
Bob Belter
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Eagle 01 //Cummins M-11 Roadranger OD RTO1110




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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2008, 08:38:04 PM »

Ahoy, All,

Great bus trip!!!!!  Returned to Carmel, CA a few weeks ago.   5,000+ miles.  St. Paul, Chicago, Okie City, Amarillo, Grand Canyon, Carmel. (will do Pensacola in Jan).

Mileage average was 12.2 mpg.  I have two A-6 A/C (R-22) compressors on the engine, so they cut me down a bit.  Best I've seen is 12.7mpg.  I normally cruise at 65mph, with the engine mosying along at about 1350 rpm.

BTW, I installed and removed (a slobbering) 6v92t and an Allison 750 trans.  This is better.  I'm probably the only guy who ever REMOVED an automatic transmission from a bus.

Enjoy  /s/  Bob   
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Bob Belter
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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2008, 08:46:17 PM »

Ahoy, All,

To expand a bit on mileage:  My genset fuel IS seperate, so I'm looking only at vehicle fuel.  Mountains make a difference, so that my average for 'left' coast driving which always includes mountains is in general about 11.5 mpg.  I'm also light, at 32,000lbs all-up with 275 gallons of fuel, and 100 gallons of water.

Enjoy  /s/  Bob   
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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2008, 10:04:01 PM »

Bob...Thanks for sharing your reports. I am interested in your M-11 engine, turbo, transmission and axle ratio w/tire size. I am searching for the best combination to re-power MCI-8 in the near future.

I hope you don't mind me asking these questions:

1) What the M-11 is setup in HP & torque or the year model & setup number.
2) Turbo came with it? If not what is the model/size?
3) Transmission is the Fuller Roadranger 10 speed auto shift? What is RTO1110?
4) How you arrange your clutch system linkage...power booster or none or whatever?
5) What is the axle ratio?
6) What is your tire size?
7) If you had a chance do it all over again, what would you suggests?

I want to learn all I can about using automatic Fuller Roadranger or whatever for my intercity bus conversion.

Thank you very much.

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
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Dreamscape
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2008, 02:22:30 AM »

Hey Bob,

I have been contemplating installing the 10 speed RR behind my 8v71 in our 01 Eagle, and getting rid of the four speed.

Any installation wisdom you would like to share?

Paul
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TomC
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2008, 05:55:43 AM »

Paul- what injectors are you running? If you have N65's or larger, it would be more advantageous to have N60's installed-since these are the injectors (even 55's) that the engine/transmission were designed to run with.  If you do have 60's now, I think you'd find the change to a 10spd would not make that big of a difference in fuel mileage-maybe 1/2 to 1 mpg.  If you want better fuel mileage, the best thing to do is to slow down and not accelerate off the light with your foot in it.  Try 55mph top speed.  A 10 spd will be ALOT more work both to install and to operate.  Personally- a good 6 spd overdrive Eaton that is fully synchronized would be my choice to make my life more enjoyable.  Then you'd have a transmission with an extra low and the addition of an overdrive.  Good Luck, TomC
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usbusin
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2008, 08:26:37 AM »

I agree with you Tom, about the Eaton 6-speed, fully synchronized transmission.  It is so nice.   And, even the wife likes it!  No double-clutching.
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Gary D

USBUSIN was our 1960 PD4104 for 16 years Ustruckin' is our 2001 Freightliner truck conversion
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2008, 01:54:21 PM »

Wow...cool choice in trannys.  My Crown had the RTO-910, which I THINK has the same gear ratios as your RTO-1150 or RTO-1110.  Yours I believe has a slightly stronger case and inside bearings.

The gear sets on the RTO-910/RTO-1110? are .82, 1.00, 1.26, 1.59, 2.00, // 2.57, 3.14, 3.95, 4.98 and 6.27.  I was told our trannys were practically designed for the 318 8V71N truck mill.

The synkro Eaton/Fuller is very nice.  Also another Fuller tranny that would work well is the TO-14507 7-speed.  A crash box, but easy shifting and has nearly a perfect gear set for a Bus Conversion.  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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Dreamscape
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2008, 02:22:45 PM »

I'm not really sure what injectors I have, that is something I will look into.

I just would like to get rid of the tall 1st gear and have a tighter range when shifting.

The Eaton 6 Speed is something I will have to look some research on. That is one trans that had not been referenced to me. Thanks for the information.

It's not the mileage so much, just an easier tranny to work with.

I keep the speed down to about 60, I'm not in a hurry anyway. I just watch for the black smoke then back off. I don't like seeing dollars going out the exhaust pipe!

This is not a project that I will do right away, when I have the time and money it will get done.

Paul

« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 04:36:09 PM by Dreamscape » Logged
makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2008, 03:02:05 PM »

Paul; it would be nice to have a rev gear also not a second gear and a solenoid   have a great day
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Dreamscape
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2008, 04:37:17 PM »

Paul; it would be nice to have a rev gear also not a second gear and a solenoid   have a great day

I couldn't agree more!

What model number on the Eaton trans. would work?

One day my friend, one day! Grin
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 04:42:17 PM by Dreamscape » Logged
Bob Belter
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2008, 07:43:06 PM »

Lottsa questions.

First, my Cummins M-11 Select was a CPL 1855, (330hp ??) and is reprogramed to CPL1973 -- 400hp.  Turbo is standard, no wastegate, and it pulls close to 30 psi boost.  It does NOT have the connector for the SAE J1939 protocol to use an Autoshift transmission.

For a 'new' start, I'd suggest the six speed synchro tranny mentioned above (I did not know of this), or the next Cummins of this specie, the ISM which looks about the same, and will accept the Autoshift, plus it will go to 500 hp.

THe DD-60 is very slightly more efficient, but is far larger physically, and some heavier.  If I were starting over, I'd again go with this engine, not the DD60.

These modern engines are so very reliable and long lived that the truckers are smashing up far more trucks than there is a demand for the engines.  They are cheap!!!

My axle ratio is 3.333, my tire size is 11:00x24.5  My transmission ratio 10th gear OD ratio is ~~.78:1  The newer Autoshift trannys have an OD ratio of about ~~75:1, so my  3.333: 1 ratio would be just a bit high.

Clutch:  I know a LOT about clutching-up.  An air ACTUATED clutch will NOT work with a modern double disc clutch.  An air BOOSTED clutch will.  I ended up with a hydraulic actuated clutch, with 1/2" hydraulic tube to couple it.  (Small hose was too slow for double clutching).  I've been planning on doing a piece for BCM on clutch actuatiion, but not tonight. 

Enjoy  /s/  Bob
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Sojourner
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2008, 11:18:01 PM »

Thank you so much Bob for your effort answering my questions.

This may help others as well, but I appreciate you shared your homework with me.

Enjoy your achievement, well done to travel with joy.  Grin Grin Grin

Thank you, Gerald
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« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2008, 09:45:20 PM »

Ask him which hand he shifts it with.  And how long it took him to learn.
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R.J.(Bob) Evans
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Bob Belter
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2008, 09:54:27 AM »

Ahoy, BusCons, and Bob of the North,

OK, I've been found out ----  My shifter is on the left side.  When I removed the Allison 750, I also had no remaining original shifting stuff, or even a route to get there.  I needed to create an entire new shift linkage, and it was much easier to put it on the left side.  I had never driven a ten speed, but I figured that if I could land on a carrier with either hand, I could shift with either hand.  How long to learn???  I don't know, I've only driven it ~~42,000 miles, and I'm still sometimes 'noisy'.

In discussions with other manual transmission guys, we have decided that having a manual shift handle to hold onto promotes good order and discipline.  You 'automatic' guys don't have this implement available, and we suspect that it leads to a tendency toward perversion.

Enjoy  /s/  Bob
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Dreamscape
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2008, 10:28:22 AM »

Bob,

Why did you decide to pull the 750?

Paul
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Bob Belter
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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2008, 08:32:20 PM »

Ahoy, Dreamscape,

I bought my Eagle -01 bus with no engine and transmission, and NO experience or background in bus conversion.
Conventional wisdom (back then) was to install a DD two cycle and Allison transmission.
I bought a DD 6v92t, and Allison 750 with '5000 miles since overhaul'.  When I installed it and began to drive it, I realized that he must have meant '5000 miles UNTIL overhaul'!!!!  It was a slobbering disaster, and the transmission was as frantic as a teen age girl!!!!

Then I began losing coolant  ---  I found it  --  It was in the crankcase making a gray milkshake!!!
Turns out that both the engine and transmission were so very early in the specie that the serial numbers didn't mean anything to the OEM's
Both the engine AND transmission cores were of NO value ---  !!!!! 
Plus, I then did a bit of engineering analysis, and with that, the Allison was gone.  WAY too inefficient, even if it could have been brought up to ‘standard’.

Sometimes education can be costly  !!!!

Enjoy  /s/  Bob
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Dreamscape
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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2008, 02:12:26 AM »

Bob,

Thanks for sharing your disaster with us. Sounds like the gremlins were hard at work! Grin

Paul
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lloyd
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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2008, 08:17:40 AM »

Bob, what did you use for a shift linkage from the front to the trans?
Lloyd
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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2008, 08:33:16 AM »

Hey guys; Gary Dawson a friend of mine has a 10 speed in his 05 eagle and he used a air shifter from a White 5000 cabover made in the 60's (I think) no long rods to worry about to keep adjusted neat install with a lever 4 inches tall on a console   have a great day
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Dreamscape
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« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2008, 09:55:33 AM »

Hey guys; Gary Dawson a friend of mine has a 10 speed in his 05 eagle and he used a air shifter from a White 5000 cabover made in the 60's (I think) no long rods to worry about to keep adjusted neat install with a lever 4 inches tall on a console   have a great day

Now, that's good information indeed!

Thanks!
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Bob Belter
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« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2008, 06:59:03 PM »

Ahoy, Lloyd,

As I noted, the original shifter 'stuff' on my Eagle-01 was long gone.  Indeed, good riddance.  It was surely NOT done by the guys who did the structure, and weighed about half as much as the bus, and was very draggy!!! 

I did an aircraft flight control cable and pulley scheme, front to rear for the fore/aft linkeage.  Good enough for flying airplanes, so I figured it would be OK for a bus.  I used the left over teleflex push-pull cable to provide left/right action.  It works just fine, and is trouble free and gives good feel of the 'gears' as you shift.  I cannot imagine that an air shifter would work, with NO  feel.  I'd be interested in a discussion about it.

Enjoy  /s/  Bob
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« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2008, 07:12:53 PM »

interesting thread,

you have pics or website links

bob and Gary dawson
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makemineatwostroke
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« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2008, 07:42:34 PM »

Newbee; I typed in (yahoo) White 5000 with air shifter and it was the first heading( just freight) so they were made have a great evening   
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« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2008, 05:05:13 PM »

I wanted to point out that an Eaton AutoShift can be used with a non-J1939 electronic engine as well as a mechanical engine.
This offers the option to install a mechanical transmission into any "T" drive bus without having to deal with fabricating shift linkage.  You still need a clutch system (hydraulic is reasonably easy to install in a bus).

What happens is that an AutoShift becomes an AutoSelect and you shift the gears by backing off the throttle and increasing/decreasing the RPM as indicated by the shift indicator.  I have not driven mine that way, but I would guess that you would develop the rhythm rather quickly.

Eaton Roadmaster has redone their website, and it looks like they have dropped all of the links to the Gen I transmission data (what you would find in a wrecking yard).  Go to:  http://www.roadranger.com/Roadranger/index.htm and do a search for trdr0040 which will tell you how to drive the transmission.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
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luvrbus
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« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2008, 08:29:48 AM »

Guys, the air shifter is in use today I drive the activity bus for the school here some it is a 1993 MCI DL 3 that came from the factory with a 3176 Cat engine and a 10 speed roadranger with OD it has a air shifter on a consloe by the seat,has a lever about 6 inches tall and a switch in the handle 1 inch wide you flip up to go into the high range gears. works great after you get the swing of it the clutch has to be depressed to activate the shifter for shifting all the way down for 1st gear and middle way for 2nd to 10th. The county here has the same shifter in their 2008 International model 8600 trucks with the 10 speeds 

good luck
« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 08:32:52 AM by luvrbus » Logged
rv_safetyman
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« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2008, 12:09:22 PM »

OK guys.  I like to stay up on transmission technology.

The air shifting you are talking about, does it totally do away with shift linkage?  Or is it the typical truck transmission that is a five speed box that is shifted with a stick and a splitter/range shifter that is shifted with the air switch?  The latter comes in two forms, one where you split each gear (like the old 5 speed transmission and 2 speed rear end) and one where you go through the gears with the stick, change the range and then go back through the gears. 

If it is a "stickless" 10 speed (no linkage), I really want to find out more about it.

With the AutoShift, the shifting tower is replaced with a top that has two servos that essentially move a "short stick" for and aft and left and right.  It sounds like you guys are talking about a similar system where the servos are replaced with air cylinders and I just can't imagine that would work. 

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
luvrbus
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« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2008, 01:24:54 PM »

Jim. I do know the difference between a 5 speed with a 2 or 3 speed axle and 10 speed .I have asked Dawson for some photos of his set up but he really don't care he is not a member of any board, this guy has had the air shifter with a 10 speed and his 3306 aftercooled 295 hp cat engine for years in that Eagle.I did research and found that White Motor Co did offer the air shifter on the 5000 and the 3000  models with 10 speeds also came up the International Truck spec for bid to the Port of Long Beach a air shifter with a 10 speed manual was in Internationals spec after market or not I don't know but the Whites were made by Fuller for the 5000 and the 3000 models in 1960.FWIW the guy at school said he thinks that is a Roadranger FRO transmission in the bus and in 15 years of service they have relpaced a few o-rings   good luck
« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 02:21:26 PM by luvrbus » Logged
Bob Belter
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« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2008, 01:35:34 PM »

Ahoy, Luvrbus, and Jim,

I too wonder how the airshifter functions.  It must work, or it would NOT be a commercial product.  Seems that a gear selection / change will 'stuff' the transmission into that gear, 'ready or not' in terms of sync of the gears.  If I'm not synch'd pretty good on gear change on my RTO11110 ten speed, it gets very noisy.  Is it airshift shifted clutch in or out?  How do you establish that it is in 'synch' before or during gear selection / change?

Thanks  /s/  Bob   
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« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2008, 07:25:44 PM »

The only true air shifter I have known in a truck was a Spicer 14 speed.  It had a 5 spd shifter with a 4 speed air controlled splitter.  In gears 1,2,3, you only used 1st and 2nd of the splitter.  In 4th and 5th of the gear shifter you used all 4 positions of the air splitter.  Also, there was a 4x4, 5x4, 6x4 where the 4 spd splitter box was competely air shifted.  Today, there are the 9, 10, 11, 15 spd Roadranger transmissions that have an air range selector for low range and high range.  On the 13, and 18, there is the addition of the overdrive splitter, so the gear shift knob will have two air splitter valves.  Personally believe a truly air shifted transmission would be difficult to drive.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2008, 08:14:21 PM »

Tom C…I was thinking you when they ask more about air shift transmission. Thanks for your reports.
My question is about the air shift trans, does it needs to communicates to engine via electronically?

If not, then how do we know when to shift without feeling movement of mechanical shift lever? Does it have a light indicator when it time to release the clutch?

Thanks.
Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
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« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2008, 09:00:56 AM »

If you all will notice, there is NOT a single vehicle made today with an air shifter-and for good reason.  The Army had a 16 spd semi automatic that was air shifted that was a maintenance nightmare trying to keep the air lines clean, and training the drivers to shift it only one way and the very important timing to the shifter.  They replaced them with Allisons. 

On any other air shifter, it would be just plainly difficult to get a smooth shift, since our Roadranger transmissions are still of the dinosaur like crash box.  If on the other hand, we had the more sophisticated manual transmissions that are in the European trucks that are synchronized, or computer assisted in shifting, electronic with air assist would be possible.

The two ways that come to mind to do the shifting mechanism on the  Roadranger transmission, is to have a single long rod like that is done on most trucks and buses.  The other was previously mentioned using heavy duty shifting cables (two are needed).  I have that on my cabover truck and have been very easy to shift.

As with all systems on your bus, I highly recommend you stay with the tried and true and not try to reinvent the wheel.  Remember you'll be traveling in areas that are not littered with truck supply houses or Home Depots.  Having a shifting system like an air shifter go out because of a simple O ring or such can really ruin your day. 

Whether you use the tried and true HT740 or HT754 Allison or the newer World Transmission Allison, the ease and performance of the Allisons is second to none.  If driven properly, the Allison will get very close to the manual in fuel mileage (this has been proven with driver training in large truck fleets). The remaining fuel mileage difference will be offset by the convenience factor of not having to play truck driver when you're out on vacation (unless that's what you want) and anyone will be able to drive your bus in a pinch. Good Luck, TomC
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