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Author Topic: Insulation  (Read 4973 times)
John316
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« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2008, 06:40:30 PM »

Tom,

Thanks. That is amazing about how insulated your coach is. Right now with very little insulation, it takes five roof airs to cool our bus now!!! I can say that will definitely be changing with a little insulation.

God bless,
John
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Ednj
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« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2008, 07:42:45 PM »

 Cool
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« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2008, 07:43:27 PM »

 Cool
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MCI-9
Sussex county, Delaware.
See my picture's at= http://groups.yahoo.com/group/busshellconverters/
That's Not Oil Dripping under my Bus, It's Sweat from all that Horsepower.
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« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2008, 11:45:56 PM »

John,

Ednj has the right tool.  Not intuitive is it?

Note that Ed's walls have metal at the top of the foam.  These points will "sweat" in really cold temps and create problems and also be a heat and cold sync.  Put firing strips up and fill to the top of the wood firing.  Also, drill small holes in those steel braces and have the foam guy squirt a shot of foam into the brace to stop convection air flow inside the brace.  Hole every ten inches will do and it doesn't take a lot of "squirt".  The foamer will know.  Buy a drill Dr.

Fiber glass batting gets wet from the wall sweating inside the wall.  once wet it will stay that way for a long time.  Being wet it will not insulate worth a darn.  I hope you decide to foam the walls and just make that happen.  Otherwise just glue an inch of foam board to the inside walls and give up the room dimension.  No much of a choice I imagine.

Good luck with your project and, by the way, my friend DID heed the best advice he could get at the time....Professional applicators, EPA, the mfr and others that had done the job and some of that info came from this board.  It wasn't anybodies fault just bad communication.  Even if he had said he would use sand paper on the disc I don't think anyone had any bad experience that was being floated around as an anecdote.  He was unfortunate, not careless, and it was a Prevost he was working on and he was making the stock foam an inch deeper for max insulation.  Firing strips!

John
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« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2008, 05:17:14 AM »

What I did to help prevent any sweating was to spray undercoating on all bare steel or aluminum, then covered it with 1 1/2" roof type foam board. Furred it out with 1x2 8" OC horizontally, then fit 3/4" foil two sides insulation board between the furring strips. I only used fiberglass insulation on the curved portion of the roof and caps. Covered the walls and ceiling with 3/8" plywood. I installed oak furring strips where I think my cabinets would go. Painted to outside roof with Kool Seal from HD. I did this when I lived in SoCal and noticed about a 20 degree drop in temp on the inside with no A/C on. I have not noticed any squeaking at all.

If I would have had the money I would have sprayed it, like others have done. But living in a warmer climate it's not really that noticeable with the way I did it. Wink

It's really all about how you want to do it and how much you can afford to get the results you want.

HTH,

Paul
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luvrbus
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« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2008, 05:43:47 AM »

John, one thing to take in consideration when using any type foam, sheets or spray is the chemical compound in it.My wife has a low chemical tolerance for any type chemicals and this may not be a problem for you or your wife.We had to use a special foam on our house outside for the stucco passing on info just in case one of you have a problem with chemicals, and FWIW foam will lose it's R valve as years pass plus some foams are nasty for years     good luck
« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 05:51:33 AM by luvrbus » Logged
Jeremy
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« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2008, 06:04:08 AM »

Regarding wet fibreglass insulation as mentioned by a couple of people - I've taken that point on board. Because my insulation was installed by the factory and is behind steel I don't know if it is wet or not, other than it seemed to be dry in the areas where I have cut into the wall where the slide-outs will be installed.

Someone mentioned drilling holes inside the framework and squirting foam inside - presumably I could drill into my walls and fill the space up with foam the same way? This hadn't occured to me before as I thought the foam had to be 'sprayed', but if it can be 'injected' as well then that might be the answer. I guess this is the same as the way insulation can be injected into cavity walls in a house. I would be extremely worried about the foam expanding and distorting the outer skin of the bus however - I know the sort of expanding foam sold in aerosol cans has more than enough power to do this, and presumably the professional stuff is the same. It would be a disaster if the bus ended up looking like a hungry horse in reverse (ie. bodywork bulging out between the ribs).

No-one has mentioned the multi-layer foil stuff yet - anyone got any advice on using that?

Jeremy
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John316
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« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2008, 06:45:32 AM »

Hey guys,

Thanks. I am actually waiting for a call from the gentleman that is going to foam our bus. He is coming out today to give a quote.

EDnj, thanks for the pics!!! I like your tool idea!!!

JohnEd, Good advice. Thanks for the point on drilling the holes in the supports. Are you saying that we should fir out the whole bus so the foam covers the supports? I really appreciate your advice. I'm sorry about your friend and thanks for the warning.

Luvrbus, I'm not exactly sure what else we would use other than foam. Good point on the chemical tolerances.

Thanks for all of the comments. I REALLY appreciate them!!!

God bless,

John
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« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2008, 10:27:09 AM »

I insulated mine pretty similar to the way Ace did his.  The interior of the outside walls are framed using 1x3 and 2x2 on 16" centers in standard home building format.  All spaces were filled in with at least 2" of rigid foam board (the RTS has curved exterior walls, so in the middle there is a lot more thickness of foam board).  Gaps were filled using the canned spray foam.  Then I used 7/16" OSB, and then finished with standard wall paneling.

The ceiling has 2.75" of rigid foam topped with paneling.  The floor was framed with 2x2's on 24" centers on top of the original floor and filled with 1.5" of rigid foam board  and topped with 3/4" Advantek TIG subflooring.  Interior divider walls are standard 2x4 home style construction.

I haven't noticed any squeaks while in motion.  Everything is very solid and the walls can support virtually any attachment. The only thing I would do differently at this point would be to go with 16" centers in the floor framing.  The Advantek subfloor does tend to creak a little when walked on, especially at cooler temperatures. 

We full time in it and last winter it got down as low as 13° and our two little Wally World electric heaters kept it 70° inside.  The insulation is less successful in the summer, but still, when you consider that we currently only have 11,000 BTU of air conditioning, it does pretty well.

One thing to remember about the stock insulation in a bus is the intended usage of the bus.  They were designed to be used with the engine running and supplying very powerful HVAC.  My RTS for example had a 10 Ton capacity air conditioning system (that's about 120,000 BTU iirc) and I don't know that rating of the heating system, but it was able to heat the bus in just minutes once the engine was warmed up.  My point is, the designers and builders weren't too worried about highly effective insulation.

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« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2008, 01:06:18 PM »

Jeremy - try this - HTH



http://www.industrialinsulation.com/slow_rise_foam.htm
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« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2008, 02:45:59 PM »

John,

If the ribs and metal framing are in contact with the paneling you will have hot and cold spots.  The firing strips, as Ace, mentioned, give you an additional foam depth equal to the thickness of the strip.  The strip also affords you anchor points for everything you attach to the walls and overhead.  Roof insulation is more critical than walls or floor.  Many "drop"the ceiling a couple inches and make it a straight horizontal surface.  That makes fitting cabnets and walls easier and gives you important additional thickness of insulation in the roof.  It also affords you a space to install cable chases and ducts.

If you install firing or not, contract with the foam sprayer to "trim" the job.  They do that also and have the tools and skills.  As Paul said though....it all is a matter of your budget.  I have read many post about guys that had their interior trimmed by providing a case of beer...work with these people and ALWAYS get a couple bids.  That is required by law in the Fed procurement process.  Multiple bids!!!!!  Then choose the lowest bid from "qualified" bidders.  Be sure and find out what kind of foam these birds are going to spray cause there is stuff out there that you do not want.  Others will have to clarify that for you....Nick or Gumpy dog or Ace or?

The force that expanding foam creates is HUGE.  No flat panel will escape being deformed.  Don't ask how I know that but it cost me a $grand.  Curved surfaces "should" stand up to it but I would be hesitant to try.  Don't forget the $1K part.

Filling the metal rib stops convection flow inside the rib and most importantly it prevents condensation from forming and draining to the floor level. MCI ribs are often rusted at the bottom of the rib inside the wall and that condensation contributes to that problem.

HTH,

John
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John316
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« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2008, 07:02:15 PM »

Great!!! Today, we met the guy who is going to squirt our foam. Great guy, lots of skill, excellent references, and good price. We scheduled him to come out a week from Tuesday. The foam is a closed cellulose, latex system (I think). We are diffidently going to put extra on the roof.

We won't be able to hire him to "trim" the bus (too bad, but somehow money isn't there...it doesn't grow on trees around here Grin Grin Grin). We also will make sure everything is sealed so no foam can get behind things and ripple our brand new skinning. It shouldn't be a big deal since everything can expand to the front, since we, obviously, haven't put our plywood up. Good idea on the filling the ribs a little.

Hightechredneck, does that mean that you only have one roof air, 11,000 btus? I was wondering because that didn't sound like much.

Thanks,

God bless,

John
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« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2008, 08:25:31 PM »


Hightechredneck, does that mean that you only have one roof air, 11,000 btus? I was wondering because that didn't sound like much.

Thanks,

God bless,

John

Actually, for now, it's two window units that add up to 11,000 btu (6500 in front, 5500 in back).  I put them in as a temporary solution for the construction phase, but their service has been extended until the budget supports getting a more effective and aesthetic solution.  It ain't pretty, but there have been quite a few priorities that came before pretty.
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« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2008, 07:48:54 AM »

Hi John316,
I have not heard of "...closed cellulose, latex system..." foam. Do you know what the R-value of it is per inch?
Thanks, Sam 4106
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« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2008, 08:56:56 AM »

I have not insulated my coach yet and find this to be a good discussion. I asked Don at R&M about foam deforming siding. He said a light coat on walls before filling ( piss coat if you will). I was planing on using material like handi foam or tiger foam any thoughts? We live in Wells NV and don't have a lot of choice for vendors unless we travel to SLC.

John
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 09:01:35 AM by Jriddle » Logged

If It Can't Be Grown Then It Has To Be Mined
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