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Author Topic: Insulation  (Read 5212 times)
edroelle
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« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2008, 10:11:52 AM »

I have not heard of commercial latex foam either.  The technology may have changed though.  The commercial foam was a heated polyurethane which has a carcinogenic vapor, until it dries.  This is similar to some (if not all) base coat-clear coat paint systems.  They require a clean air source during installation for safety.

Don't be in the bus while they are foaming.

Ed Roelle
Flint, MI
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JohnEd
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« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2008, 01:34:00 PM »

John,

I think you do not want that "latex" foam.  Be careful!  You want the the poly stuff that is dangerous.  You need it to be "closed cell" so it won't absorb water and rust the metal and rot.  The guys that do this are hooked up with the contractor that builds walk in coolers and freezers and sprays the inside of refer trailers/trucks for the road.  They travel and make swings thru areas but aren't on a sched.  To apply this stuff you need an aspirator but one "team" uses makeshift helmets and uses the exhaust from a shop vac to provide the fresh air via vacuum cleaner type hose.  Whatever floats your boat.  Also need a fan for flo thru.  The fumes are lethal but they dissipate rapidly....the sprayer will know.  If the sprayer doesn't have solid practice he will die very early in his career so ask if this is their first job Grin Grin  Latex can be sprayed without a mask and that is a ripoff.

Jriddle,

The guys that do this are a road crew.  They will come to your house for free if you are between their other jobs.  Otherwise they will probably charge fuel but getting the quote may be the problem.  They charge by the cubic so if you know the surface area and depth you can get a quote over the phone with the stipulation that cost may increase if there is a discrepancy.  Being out in the sticks may not matter but the entire process takes one day for the two man crew and that includes trimming by them.  Four days if you do it Shocked Grin  It needs heat so winter outside in Utah is not going to work unless you are in a heated bldg.  If they are doing refers though they have that bldg at the site they are working at.

Jeramy,

Look for an "R" value on any insulation you might use.  Not a "simulated R value" or effective R value or any other play on words. 

High tec,

I may have a couple roof air conditioners for you really cheap.  Dometics!  Problem is getting them from Orygun to you in Tenn.  If you ca sort that part out you are in.  Hows $15 each?  Same price to any Knut as well.  I still have to test them but I think they are both good.

John


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The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
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John316
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« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2008, 05:50:42 AM »

Hi,

First off I have a correction to make. It is actually a closed cell polyurethane. Sorry my mind was???where???
Anyways this gentleman that is going to squirt our bus has a really tight practice. He has done multiple S&S RV's (not to mention all of the houses, building, and specialty projects) and seemed really knowledgeable and helpful. R value for the foam is 7 per inch. This guy also was willing to work with us and around our stuff. Meaning he didn't mind us leaving some of our temporary furniture in so that we didn't have to take the windshield out to get all of the couches, fridge, etc, out. He said that if we were around that he would tell us when he needed the stuff moved to the other side, and we will move it. We won't be in the bus until he says it is safe. I hope that answers the questions. Thanks for the replies... can you tell that I need a lot of help???
Grin Wink Grin

HighTeckRedneck, thanks for the explanation. I understand about the budget. We tend to have the same problem!!!

Thanks again for all of the info. Much appreciated!!!

God bless,

John
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Jeremy
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« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2008, 10:39:10 AM »

I've been looking for some comparisions between the multi-layer foil insulation and foam; everything I had read before (cheifly advertising material from the foil insulation manufacturers) indicated that the foil stuff was much better than 'old fashioned' foam - however, the extract below (from a manufacturer of foam) totally contradicts this. I've copied it here just in case it is of interest to anyone else as background material before deciding to foam your bus (for instance, it suggests that you need a minimum of 4" of foam to meet the minimum standards for new-build houses in the UK, which puts the typical inch or two of foam put into a 'fully insulated' bus into context).

The full document is here: http://www.foam-insulation.co.uk/insulation/multi-foil-insulation.htm

An extract talking about foam verus foil (remember that this is from a foam manufacturer):

"For aged polyurethane foam (worst case scenario), a typical calulated value of thermal conductance by test method ASTM is k value = 0.026 W/mK, to achive a U value of 0.20 would require an R value (depth/k value) of 5 for the foam depth sprayed (1/u value or 1/0.20 = 5) and therefore calculating for depth is k * R  or 0.26 * 5 =  130 mm . A 130 mm coating of high density polyurethane foam will hence do the job here to achieve a U value of 0.20. Deph of foam required to achieve a particular U value is given by the conductance value of the foam divided by the U value, k/U = depth. Polyurethane spray foams have typical thermal conductances in the range 0.015 to 0.030 W/mK with high density foams at the lower end of the scale.


Essentially, the research conducted by the BRE has looked at 'real world' applications and concluded that multi-foil insulation products significantly differ from the measured on site U values (the lower the U value the lower the heat loss will be through the product and therefore the better the insulator will be) to that claimed by the manufactures. Significant because the real world measurements indicate that for most applications foil based insulation products cannot come close to meeting the new standards for thermal insulation introduced by the April 2006 Building Regulations. Best case U value was 0.43 given favourable assumptions whilst worst case was a U value of 0.98 (the lower the U value the better the thermal insulation value) Given that the Building Regulations demand at least U values starting from  0.25 and below, it is clear that foil based insulation products cannot meet the new standards. This is against a background where foil based insulation product manufacturers have been claiming that U values as low as 0.18 are achievable with multi foil. This was not borne out by real world research by the BRE where actual U values measurement were significantly inferior. No wonder the ASA so fit to take action against the multi-foil insulation manufacturers.

Based upon the BRE results, as a comparison, a 40 mm coating of polyurethane foam produces a thermal U value of worst case 0.53. A multi-foil insulation product of 30 mm at best case as tested by the BRE gives a real world U value of 0.78, significantly inferior to polyurethane foam. A 100 mm coating of polyurethane falls in U value to below 0.25, the new minimum starting U value under the new April 2006 Building Regulations. A multi-foil system is stuck at 0.78, hopelessly outclassed and cannot comply with Building Regulations. Even going from one manufacturer's test claim of U = 0.533 as the best of the best this still falls hopelessly short of complying with Building Regs."


Jeremy
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« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2008, 11:58:31 AM »

Jeremy,

You have made the best case I have seen for doing the firing strips and insulating to their deapth. 

Thanks for that excellent post.  Europe again! 

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
busshawg
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« Reply #50 on: October 28, 2008, 09:35:32 AM »

Nice job on your insulation Blacksheep. Sorry my computer has been down for awhile or I would have got back to you quicker. Looks very proffesional !

Grant
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Have Fun!!
Grant
steamguy56
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« Reply #51 on: October 28, 2008, 05:04:50 PM »

Same as Ace on my prevo. Just seemed to be much simpler, While squaring off the back adding 1 1/2'' angle, sheets   of insolation,3/4 ply, 1/4'' holes drilled, cans of foam sprayed to tighten up everything under there. Hard to hear that 60 under there!
                                Danny
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Blacksheep
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« Reply #52 on: October 28, 2008, 06:36:07 PM »

Thanks guys! Insulating the bus was actually fun! Trofting the insulation for the conduit to from one outlet to another in the walls made it almost like snow! I had that crap everywhere and it doesn't sweep worth a darn! It has to be vacuumed! It doesn't squeek and makes the walls very solid!

Ace
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BJ
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« Reply #53 on: October 28, 2008, 08:58:04 PM »

I don't know what it is called but the guys that did mine used a (horse comb?) it was metal with rolls of teeth in a circle.. You horse folks out there know what I mean. anyway it worked really good and quick. Use the 5/8...I did and don't regret it one bit
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John316
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« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2008, 05:02:46 AM »

BJ, it is called a curry come.

Ace, you have a great looking bus thanks for your comments.

God bless,

John
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MCI 1995 DL3. DD S60 with a Allison B500.
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